Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Dr. Reef]

I don't think it's matter of 'necessary', I think it's a matter of what's efficient and what's commercially viable. There are probably living bacteria to be found in most if not all of the non-refrigerated products, but in such small numbers that it takes quite a bit longer to establish colonization. And the longer they go unused (sitting on a shelf), the greater the discrepancy. My own experience is that the efficacy of all of the products I've tried is quite exaggerated. And no, I've never used Turbo Start. I might do so in the future, if I can find it when I need it. I'm not going to buy some just to have it sit unused in my own fridge, losing potency every day.

It also depends on the strain of bacteria in the bottle. Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter species of bacteria are true nitrifiers. while others use Heterotrophic bacteria which are not nitrifying bacteria and will provide little to no benefit establishing a cycled filter.

 

[rkpetersen]

Stability was dosed daily which would definitely bring number of bacteria per ml higher than any other product used.

I may have missed it and if so I apologize, but unless the actual concentration of viable bacteria in each bottle is given as they leave the factory, we really have no idea how close they are. They could, when used as instructed, even be one or two orders of magnitude different, in which case multiple doses of one product over a week might still be a tiny fraction of the bacteria given in one dose of another product. Actually, I would guess this to be the case, given your results.

 

[rkpetersen]

It also depends on the strain of bacteria in the bottle. Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter species of bacteria are true nitrifiers. while others use Heterotrophic bacteria which are not nitrifying bacteria and will provide little to no benefit establishing a cycled filter.

Oh absolutely, any non-nitrifying bacterial species do not qualify and in fact should ideally not be present in these products. If the products were all equally effective, the next step in evaluating them would be to see which have contaminants and which don't. (Sort of like with, for example, video cards; the more alike they are superficially, the more granular you have to get to distinguish them. Alas, we aren't anywhere near that level.)

 

[Dr. Reef]

@brandon429
I kept the sand from the Fritz tank which was the most established bio filter in all tanks, in a pasta jar spray painted black from outside. Its got a twist lid and i installed a float valve on the lid with a airline tubing bulkhead to act as ato.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@rkpetersen
I have talked to a dozen companies from all over the world and i am not going to name any but a few companies that did comparison studies told me that there are ONLY 3 true nitrifiers out there,
Fritz, ATM and Dr Tim

 

[MnFish1]

I don't think it's matter of 'necessary', I think it's a matter of what's efficient and what's commercially viable. There are probably living bacteria to be found in most if not all of the non-refrigerated products, but in such small numbers that it takes quite a bit longer to establish colonization. And the longer they go unused (sitting on a shelf), the greater the discrepancy. My own experience is that the efficacy of all of the products I've tried is quite exaggerated. And no, I've never used Turbo Start. I might do so in the future, if I can find it when I need it. I'm not going to buy some just to have it sit unused in my own fridge, losing potency every day.

This makes sense. In the next test the control tank will be the most important ie will adding very small amounts of ammonia with or without bacteria be equal. Btw @Dr. Reef it would be really good if you could get some data on how fast ammonia rises in a fish only system so that it’s a fair comparison. And also give the control with no bacteria time to see if there is a real difference

 

[Dr. Reef]

I am impressed enough with Fritz where I would buy it if they ever choose to distribute it in Canada.

Dr Tims does state on their website that at room temp their product is good for 6 months, I would like to know if the best by date they place on the bottle is based on being kept at room temp or at 50F?

i think shelf life mentioned on bottle is just that shelf life, i think i read somewhere that it will increase the longevity by refrigerating it.

 

[rkpetersen]

@rkpetersen
I have talked to a dozen companies from all over the world and i am not going to name any but a few companies that did comparison studies told me that there are ONLY 3 true nitrifiers out there,
Fritz, ATM and Dr Tim

Hard to believe without more detail. I don't think it would take long for a working microbiologist (or even a high school student) to streak some plates of each product and find out exactly what's in it.

That would actually be a cool science project. Someone's probably done it somewhere.

 

[Dr. Reef]

This makes sense. In the next test the control tank will be the most important ie will adding very small amounts of ammonia with or without bacteria be equal. Btw @Dr. Reef it would be really good if you could get some data on how fast ammonia rises in a fish only system so that it’s a fair comparison. And also give the control with no bacteria time to see if there is a real difference

Good suggestion. I was told by Seneye and Prodibio that 0.1-0.2 NH3 levels is what a normal tank with fish with produce but what i will do is that i will setup a tank and place couple of fish in it and monitor how much NH3 levels are there when fish are in the tank and how it raises and falls. Effects of feeding etc. once i have that magic number then i will dose that amount accordingly throughout the day in same amounts and quantity as observed in a tank with live fish.
This will be a fair comparison.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Hard to believe without more detail. I don't think it would take long for a working microbiologist (or even a high school student) to streak some plates of each product and find out exactly what's in it.

That would actually be a cool science project. Someone's probably done it somewhere.

True, i dont have a microscope but if someone that does and know how to figure these bacteria out i am willing to ship some samples of these products to them for a microscopic study and evaluation.

 

[rkpetersen]

True, i dont have a microscope but if someone that does and know how to figure these bacteria out i am willing to ship some samples of these products to them for a microscopic study and evaluation.

If I were still in college, I would have already offered. Alas, those days are long gone.

Seriously though, I do have a fairly good scope and could do oil immersion in a pinch, but as mentioned you can't see much without at least a gram stain. No stains, growth media, glassware, burners, incubator, sterile room, etc etc; that is, no lab. Sometimes I miss it.

 

[Dr. Reef]

If I were still in college, I would have already offered. Alas, those days are long gone.

Do you need just a regular microscope? i have been considering buying one and one i am considering is with specs that can magnify upto 2500-3000 times and has a hdmi camera and is trinocular. i am not a biologist so if someone can help me on this subject and what type of microscope i would need to be able to differentiate between bacteria if they are Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter species or Heterotrophic bacteria.

 

[rkpetersen]

Do you need just a regular microscope? i have been considering buying one and one i am considering is with specs that can magnify upto 2500-3000 times and has a hdmi camera and is trinocular. i am not a biologist so if someone can help me on this subject and what type of microscope i would need to be able to differentiate between bacteria if they are Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter species or Heterotrophic bacteria.

Well as I mentioned I'm some years out of date, but simply observing bacteria under high optical mag without other processing generally doesn't do much. Bacteria are pretty simple, they come as spheres, rods, and spiral; single, pairs, chains, and clusters. So, you can't get far with thousands of different species with just that. Stains of various kinds, simple chemical stains like Gram for broad categories, immunochemical and other stains can narrow it down. An old technique is to 'streak' each mixed cultures onto a succession of agar plates, resulting in a pure isolated culture of each bacterial species. Then you try to grow each bacterium in different media under different temperatures and sometimes different atmospheres, and from what happens you can often determine what species you're dealing with. And of course I'm sure that now there are DNA methods that make all that of historical interest only, but I've never used those.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I wonder if somebody knows any lab that does such type of testing. I wouldn't tell them the name of the product but just simply send view vials named ABCD and see what results they get out of it.

 

[Lady Ninja]

Good vote for ATM. Its a bare bottom QT tank with an air sponge. I dosed it on top of them. Having circulation pump as well, amming slightly towards the sponges. Cant remember the exact day i tested, no longer than three days, i had nitrate reading. Before i could barely go three days with out wc. Now zero stress at all. And i feed good.

ATM was the only product i could Get a hold of here in my country. And so so so happy it worked! Feeling like i actually have a life again!

To add. It was after ttm. I let the last clean tank run with the bacteria, sponge, pump, temperature one day before adding fish. But i forgot to have salinity. I had no hope for it to work, because i saw that ATM has seperate product for fresh and saltwater.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Which country are you in? @Lady Ninja
After talking to a few Distributors I heard ATM is really popular in Europe with Fritz starting to catch up.

 

[squampton]

i think shelf life mentioned on bottle is just that shelf life, i think i read somewhere that it will increase the longevity by refrigerating it.

This is what their website says

"Good for 6 months at room temperature, 1 year at 50°F. Best to keep refrigerated for longest shelf life."

 

[Humblefish]

FWW. Doing a QT cycle right now and the bottle of BioSpira that I got through Amazon was dead.

Same experience buying BioSpira off Amazon. Probably sits in a hot warehouse for too long.

BioSpira only works for me when I buy it from Petco, and sometimes it takes a week for the tank to be fully cycled.

 

[Victoria M]

I am really interested in the outcome of the refridgerated Fritz vs the non refridgerated Fritz.

 

[brandon429]

Dr Reef thanks for the dedication and the jar experiment you know that’s my fave now and I’ll watch for updates for it till I’m too old to thumb navigate the internet via iPad.

I know of a good testing lab in Colorado, takes samples by mail like triton does for us in water samples but for colony counts
update on the toy microbiology experiment: in the early 80s we made a big move when I was a kid and some of my toys got moved and some got sent to my grandmothers basement where they stayed packed until ~2013 when we moved grandma and sold that home. I got some he men back

And snake man still had 1984 El Paso water in his chest cavity, he shoots it out if you press his head down. I was considering mailing him to the lab and making bets about whether that sample water is pure after living in plastic airtight he man for thirty years. Pure as in no bac, no fungus and no DNA pure (I don’t think it will be but am not sure on this one)

I put off doing it but one day...lab was:
https://www.emsl.com/Services.aspx?action=show&TopServiceCategoryID=5&serviceid=429

This green guy is similar to your sand experiment but being airtight removes a key self sustenance variable. This water might indeed be sterile. It was not sterile out of the grungy rent house tap,I bet it held a million colonies at fill time. Where’s that mass going to go? Perhaps it’s just cloudy, not sure I haven’t messed with it or pumped his head, don’t want air incursion to mess up a potential test

Ps
Skunk-Orr still smells the same, patchouli is mixed in the production resin. there’ll be Keith Richards, roaches, and skunk Orr.
By comparison, my cousins strawberry shortcake figures smell like regular plastic, only skunk Orr can weather the millennia, it’s literally equal strength smell w no loss after thirty. They made quality toys.