Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Discussion in 'Reef Aquarium Discussion' started by Dr. Reef, Jun 10, 2018.

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  1. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    It's to prove that bacteria self seed, and self feed, into completing a cycle. No purchase required

    Coincidentally, he's got a sixty day vessel ready to go. Talk about instant grat for all things pondered regarding filter bac=nice

    No control needed, this is not that type of test. What happens here illuminates what already happens everywhere. We're just not sure of the time required
     
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  2. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    @MnFish1
    if i am not mistaken, @brandon429 wanted me to do this so to prove worst case situations where bacteria can survive and stay active.
    So complete darkness, no temp control. no flow no media, just ato to keep salinity on target.
    Supposed to keep it for 10 yrs and see if it stays active.
     
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  3. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Just curious - what difference does it make? How do you prove that its 'autotrophic bacteria' vs heterotrophic bacteria that have colonized the jar? In a sense this experiment has already been done hasn't it - i.e. bacteria in a bottle does not survive indefinitely (autotrophic) - without refrigeration. This has been shown by multiple companies that market this bacterial product - including Fritz. While I believe your 'fallow Tests' happened the way you say they did - I don't believe that the reasoning/theory you use to explain them is correct.
     
  4. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    even refrigerated bacteria in bottle cannot last for ever. it has a life of 6 month to 1 yr. I dont think i have seen anything on the market over 1 yr.
    But thats in a bottle, not sure about a jar with saltwater with organics in it and ato constantly delivering rodi water. This may aid and assist in longer living bacteria. not sure.
     
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  5. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    I disagree. No matter whether you get the results you expect - or the results you don't expect you can't explain why either result happened without a control jar - and some other controls (mentioned in another post)
     
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  6. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    That was my point - Brandon's experiment has already been done (if you're talking about autotrophic nitrifiers). Just because ammonia drops in your jar - doesn't mean that its autotrophic nitrifying bacteria causing the drop.
     
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  7. neilp2006

    neilp2006 Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Ishtvthat just a really small, odd shaped tank at that point?
     
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  8. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    good point, but how long a fallow tank unattended un fed and un regulated on temp etc can stay in cycle?
     
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  9. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    @brandon429 Take your tank that sat in the guys garage in the dark with only water in it for 3 years or how ever long it was - when re-established - it lowered ammonia - right? Well - there is no way to show/prove that that wasn't heterotrophic bacteria that were in the tank living on detritus (what was left on the rock and their own detritus). Thats why controls are needed. You look at that 'data - ie the garage tank' - and make a conclusion - but there is no basis on which to say that autotrophic nitrifiers were responsible for the drop. In these experiments (though its not for certain that its only heterotrophic bacteria in some of the bottles) - its shown that with ammonia alone - that many of them perform poorly - but with a little carbon added they do work.
     
  10. neilp2006

    neilp2006 Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    The bacteria may very well go dormant, and come back up to speed once a food source is added.

    My past life I was/am a phd microbiologist. I used to demonstrate to students that those old dried out agarose dishes in the cold room, that had dessicated to the point that they were essentially dry agar films, were still dangerous and bacteria could be recovered simply by rehydrating them. This is on the order of 2.5-3 years. Of course, lab strains can’t necessarily translate to environmental strains, but in earlier research (early 2000’s) I was able to pull up clostridium spores from lyophilised soil samples obtained in the 1980’s.

    So my guess is that in the AC conditioned rooms these tanks find themselves in, bacteria could persist without intentional feeding etc for 2, maybe 3 years. All you need to do is feed and see a shortened cycle time. Of course, this requires standardized ammonia dosing instead of ghost feeding since you need the accuracy of dosing to make any conclusions more valid. You can’t have an ‘undefined variable’ like ‘half a shrimp’ and be able to rely on the data (not insinuating that this is happening here- I quite like this thread but I’d maybe design some controls differently)
     
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  11. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    The only way you can tell what's causing what - and which bacteria is still living is to do an experiment like described below. This will show whether pure culture nitrifiers can survive. It will also show whether heterotrophs can survive and provide a 'cycle' after fallow time. Without the appropriate controls below there is no point to the trying to figure this out. The experiment below is IMHO a pointless experiment BTW - Im certainly not suggesting anyone do it. As I said - the fact that nitrifying bacteria don't live indefinitely in a bottle has already proven this an incorrect theory IMHO:)

    Take 3 sterile jars - and 3 non-sterile jars:

    1. sterile jar, sterile seawater, and add a pure culture of nitrifying bacteria with some completely sterile substrate. Allow it to cycle using sterile ammonia (added) and a sterile source of oxygen. Then sterilely close it off.
    2. sterile jar with the same sterile ingredients except no bacteria.
    3, sterile jar with everything in the first except no ammonia.

    Then 3 non-sterile jar with the same ingredients as the first 3 - except nothing starts out sterile. Then set up 5 replicates of these and test each group every year for 5 years.
     
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  12. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    This does work with spore forming bacteria (which are heterotrophs - and likely some of the bacteria present in some of the products) - and heterotrophic bacteria - some bacillus pseudomonas, etc will lower ammonia in those conditions. This doesn't work with obligate autotrophs - which can enter a dormant state but cant last indefinitely in this state (without feeding)
     
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  13. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    My 'guess' would be the same length of time that bacteria in a bottle (of the fritz type) can live without feeding... perhaps a little longer if there is good flow of water (i.e. oxygen) So months - with a slow decline.
     
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  14. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I was never concerned with species accomplishing the task. The drop in ammonia, or not, at given intervals is the test

    Whatever clades accomplish that= filter bac in general
     
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  15. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    In any case - its an interesting discussion. And BTW @brandon429 If the discussion is only whether a cycle can happen more quickly in a fallow tank - not suggesting that that cycle is due to autotrophic nitrifying bacteria - I agree with you. (or that fallow tank will almost immediately reduce ammonia - not due to obligate autotrophs - I agree with you)
     
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  16. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Great - well this is not what we discussed in your other thread - the one about new view of microbiology. Which is what I was basing my current discussion on. The discussion was about obligate autotrophic denitrifying bacteria covering every surface in the tank - even without added ammonia or food source.
     
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  17. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Agreed the other thread illuminated the contributions from other types, the utility of it all is my goal. Usable filter bac in any combo measured in various circumstances. Whatever the free stuff is :) ha
     
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  18. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    @Dr. Reef. Could you comment on the results of your study based on this. In other words - if 'any' denitrifying bacteria works to cycle an aquarium as @brandon429 seems to be saying - isn't it true that all of the products (that lowered ammonia to 0 in 1-2 days - including those with carbon) - performed equally? I.e. no real advantage to Fritz unless you are going to use ammonia to start your cycle? (My personal opinion is that the ammonia cycle is a waste of time - I always add fish - and bacteria immediately together and have never had a problem. Im sure Fritz would work in this case as well)?
     
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  19. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Very true @MnFish1
    If i was to take all products and use fish food in tanks along with bacteria to cycle, All products will perform just about the same, 2-3 days to cycle the tank.
     
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  20. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Update:
    @cbleehk sent me a bacteria they can easily purchase in Hong Kong. He wanted me to test this bacteria but its not available in USA. So he was generous to have purchased and shipped it to me. I receive his package today. I wanted to personally thank him and if others can do the same i will be much obliged.
    Thank you @cbleehk

    20190109_125859.jpg 20190109_125929.jpg 20190109_130018.jpg 20190109_130040.jpg
     
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