Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Discussion in 'Reef Aquarium Discussion' started by Dr. Reef, Jun 10, 2018.

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  1. Fritz TurboStart 900

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  2. Fritz Zyme 9

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  3. Dr Tim one and only

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  4. Prodibio Startup

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  5. Seachem Seed or Stability

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  6. Bio Spira

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  8. ATM Colony

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  9. Floval Cycle

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  1. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hi, thank you for your kind remarks and following the thread.
    Yes your assumption is correct.
    Conventional cycling by adding deli shrimp or pure ammonia into a newly setup tank along with LR live sand etc then waiting ammonia to spike then down to 0 and nitrites spike then down to 0 etc takes time and depending on how big the system is and media used it can take upto months before a good strong biological filter is formed that is ready to handle a bio load.
    These products that i have tested, can reduce the cycle down to days. Anywhere from 2-5 days you can have a tank cycled and ready for fish to be added to it which was unheard of and not possible but with new technologies and advancements such bacteria can be mass produced and harvested then bottled for us hobbyist to use and get pretty much instant cycle.
    hope that answers your question.
     
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  2. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    @brandon429 I tested the vial. I dosed it with 0.10 ppm of ammonium chloride and tested 24 hrs later, it shows 0 ammonia.
     
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  3. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I will cry a digital tear but want to clarify first

    You're saying the unassisted cycle ate detectable ammonia within 60 days on its own to secure footing and feed


    I'm so happy to see that in marine testing, sheer happy. I don't recall another. We're all too lazy to set up the actual test other than yourself, it's been more fun to battle off theory. How great to see really
     
  4. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yes sir,
    60 days old vial filled with fritz cycled water only in the vial. Kept dark in room temp only ato installed. I pulled the lid dropped 1 drop of ammonium chloride = 0.1 ppm in there stirred the water then placed it back.
    Today after 24 hrs I took 5ml out of the vial and tested for ammonia with API kit.
    It registered 0. I pulled another 5ml to test with Red Sea and it also showed 0.
     
  5. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Thanks so much, I will link to this thread for many years, well done :)
     
  6. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    I started as a critic, ended up as a believer.
    I am so glad I started this study and you guys helped me along.
    I have few more side studies left but I own all this equipment and would like to continue testing for other side studies and other products. So keep the ideas flowing
     
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  7. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    You've conducted, funded primarily, sourced amazing people and bottle bac makers, guided tons of discussion + sides on the best bacteria thread I know. Most up to date info, I learned tons.

    truly well done passion for science, not said lightly. There's so much article gold in here, multiple mines worth.
     
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  8. hart24601

    hart24601 Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Wow. Amazing job. This really is of value, appreciate it!
     
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  9. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    But Fritz cycled water has nitrifying bacteria in it. I thought the question was can you just put a jar of water (without added bacteria) in the dark, etc and have it cycle on its own - but I was never sure the purpose of it exactly...

    There is also no way to know whether it was heterotrophs or autotrophs present in the water (my guess is heterotrophs).

    Lastly - did you measure the ammonia with the kit after you dosed it (I mean immediately).
     
  10. Philipgonzales3

    Philipgonzales3 Active Member

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  11. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    >>@MnFish1
    if i am not mistaken, @brandon429 wanted me to do this so to prove worst case situations where bacteria can survive and stay active.
    So complete darkness, no temp control. no flow no media, just ato to keep salinity on target.
    Supposed to keep it for 10 yrs and see if it stays active.<<

    But - unless you have another jar with no Fritz - there is no way to tell if other heterotrophs have 'stepped in' ie. Pseucomonas. This will also lower ammonia - but says nothing about whether nitrifying bacteria (autotrophs) will stay alive this long. in fact unless you start with a sterile jar sterile ato in a sterile environment - except added (pick your nitrifying strain) - this single jar won't prove anything. (as a microbiologist)
     
  12. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Sorry @brandon429 thats what he is saying but this experiment doesn't prove that. First - he didn't measure the ammonia level after he addition - from what I understand the API test between 0 and .25 is extremely unreliable - so after he added the drop it may have measured 0 5 minutes later. Second - this water contained nirifying bacteria (Fritz) - it was not 'unassisted' - everyone knows the nitrifiers can go dormant. Finally - it could be heterotrophs that have taken over and lowered the ammonia - and Both Mikeyn and @Dr. Reef have made it clear that you can't cycle with heterotrophs.
     
  13. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    But I thought he clarified pages ago: simple saltwater, no bac added other than prep contaminants, substrate, on a shelf sixty days

    Dose to a tiny measurable amnt on api kits already pictured accurate here for the first time on day ~ 60, and in 24 hours it’s zero, and in prior pages we have triply clarified for you that clades don’t matter for unassisted cycle study; we are simply interested in ammonia being oxidized from time, and natural contaminants, but not by any form of feed help or direct inoculation.

    I read his first clarification as the total opposite of your summary just now.

    I have zero trouble accepting that bacteria which still nitrify contaminate in first, produce overnight oxidation as the sole measure we’re seeking by day sixty, sooner but not sure how soon, and then in that time and thereafter other genera take over to keep producing the same measures forever- unstarvable, as we are about to see in 2029 and as we’ve already seen in my 2 and 3 year fallow testing threads linked.

    In other words, nobody would know which type of bacteria are seeding naturally as the test kit in 24 hours reads the same, who cares what genus and species they are, they got in on their own and they fed on their own.

    @Dr. Reef can you clarify for us once more
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 11:42 AM
  14. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Yeah - its confusing to me - because @mikeyn and @Dr. Reef have said that heterotrophs cant cycle a tank - so it is important (I guess).
     
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  15. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I just saw in re read where he said it was fritz cycled

    Agreed, that undoes the test for environmental seeding. It's still valid for food acquisition testing, but not at sixty days, more like six hundred days to see if it still oxidizes

    I was under the impression earlier it was just prep water and salt, no form of initial bac added other than what contaminates in. You're correct it did not measure that as I reread. Still, an easy test to setup... Simply hydrate some media in saltwater for sixty days and test to see what occurs. If anything, a reader from this thread would be likely to set it up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 4:11 PM
  16. mikeyn

    mikeyn Member

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    I never said heterotrophs can cycle a tank, I said heterotrophs with enough food (sugar/carbon) can be used to control ammonia as this is what is used in Central & South America in Shrimp Aquaculture. They add Molasses to their ponds as they cannot wait for the ponds to cycle naturally and molasses ic cheaper than buying/adding nitrifying bacteria.
    Heterotrophic bacteria can in no way handle ammonia the way nitrifying bacteria can.
     
  17. Dr. Reef

    Dr. Reef Always at your service R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    I am confused myself.
    What do I need to clarify?
    Also Heterotrophic bacteria on its cannot cycle a tank but they can take up ammonia as a secondary fuel source which if colonized in numbers can take up enough ammonia to seem like there is a completed cycle.
     
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  18. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Right you said :

    I think you mis typed when you said 'I never said heterotrophs can cycle a tank'. (you did not).

    Btw - if you have read what I've written - I strongly support your method - as compared to the other bottled bacteria.... There are several issues here - @brandon429 's that if the ammonia drops after 3 years in a garage it means the nitrifiers (oligrotrphs) are the reason - except now we know he means 'any bacteria - it doesnt matter. I say there is no way to know which bacteria are lowering the ammonia after 3 years in a garage. etc etc. its all been said before
     
  19. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    you need to clarify;

    fritz seems to lower ammonia quickly without carbon.
    Others seem to quickly remove ammonia with carbon
    You seem to prefer Fritz.
    I say they seem equivalent (because there aren't long-term tests) - and btw - my predjudice is against heterotrophs. You seemed to agree.
    And if I read your last sentence correctly - it seems that stability with carbon vs fritz is a wash - because in the end both will endup with cycled tanks..


    The question to answer - is - based on your studies - do you think there is an advantage to the 'add ammonia' method' vs the 'add fish' method - and why. I see no difference - but you seem to prefer Fritz. BtW disclosure - I also prefer Fritz -but I have used others with equal success. Much of my positive bias to Fritz relates to your research.
     
  20. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    if you're talking about the jar thing - `that is an uncontrolled experiment tat has no Meaning.
     
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