Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Victoria M]

if you're talking about the jar thing - `that is an uncontrolled experiment tat has no Meaning.

Just because you can not see the meaning does not mean it has no meaning to another person. Folks are allowed to be simply curious without proving an idea. Remember to be kind in your word choice. Aren’t these folks your interenet friends? Sometimes you seem to express yourself with too little regard for others feelings.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

24 hours into my dry rock cycle. Added Fritz Turbo Start 900 and a large pinch of fish food, using Red Sea Coral Pro salt.
Salinity: 1.025 ppm
Temp: 75.5 F

Do these tests look like what I should expect to be seeing 24 hours in with Fritz Turbostart 900?

Nitrates: >20
Nitrites: .01-.02
Amonia: >2
pH: ~8.2
dKH: ~8

 

[MnFish1]

Just because you can not see the meaning does not mean it has no meaning to another person. Folks are allowed to be simply curious without proving an idea. Remember to be kind in your word choice. Aren’t these folks your interenet friends? Sometimes you seem to express yourself with too little regard for others feelings.

Agreed. BTW - Im serious - The fact is just because something is true doesnt make it 'unfriendly'. I re-read the post you quoted - frankly I stand by what I said. It is meaningless based on the original question that was asked (in my opinion). @brandon429 and @Dr. Reef know its not a personal insult or something. BTW I agree with you completely - people are allowed to be curious without proving an idea. That said - If I said something like - oh I hung a piece of iron in my tank for 4 weeks and my coral skyrocketed in growth - would you not want someone to say - wait a minute?

I try to intermingle my 'questioning posts' with 'complimentary posts'. Not many people seem to notice that. In any case - there was no harm meant with my comment and I'll take it as constructive criticism

 

[Victoria M]

Agreed. BTW - Im serious - The fact is just because something is true doesnt make it 'unfriendly'. I re-read the post you quoted - frankly I stand by what I said. It is meaningless based on the original question that was asked (in my opinion). @brandon429 and @Dr. Reef know its not a personal insult or something. BTW I agree with you completely - people are allowed to be curious without proving an idea. That said - If I said something like - oh I hung a piece of iron in my tank for 4 weeks and my coral skyrocketed in growth - would you not want someone to say - wait a minute?

I try to intermingle my 'questioning posts' with 'complimentary posts'. Not many people seem to notice that. In any case - there was no harm meant with my comment and I'll take it as constructive criticism

I did not say what you said was untrue or unfriendly. I said your word choice was unkind. One can communicate truth and kindness. One is not exclusive of the other. I am a rather blunt person myself. I don’t beat around the bush, and I don’t verbally beat folks over the head. I am glad no harm was meant by your comments, and I am happy to see that you seem to have taken no harm by my comments.

 

[Dr. Reef]

24 hours into my dry rock cycle. Added Fritz Turbo Start 900 and a large pinch of fish food, using Red Sea Coral Pro salt.
Salinity: 1.025 ppm
Temp: 75.5 F

Do these tests look like what I should expect to be seeing 24 hours in with Fritz Turbostart 900?

Nitrates: >20
Nitrites: .01-.02
Amonia: >2
pH: ~8.2
dKH: ~8

Those numbers are normal in an non cycle tank. Let it run for another day or 2. You will see reduction in ammonia and nitrite while nitrate will go up.
How big is the tank?

 

[Dr. Reef]

I prefer non fish cycle meaning adding ammonia then bacteria to cycle as I am always afraid what if the product doesnt work. If product fails you got dead fish on your hand.
Many products did fail in sterile tank but performed well in presence of carbon source.
Until I do my final testing, which is to add food from day 1 then add ammonia to 1ppm and dose bacteria. Till that time I really cant 100% comment on if this theory of carbon source is true or not.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

Those numbers are normal in an non cycle tank. Let it run for another day or 2. You will see reduction in ammonia and nitrite while nitrate will go up.
How big is the tank?

You’re the man. Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. The tank is a 30 gallon but the rock is running in 10 gallons of water in a brute container right now. Any issue if I let the rock cycle for many weeks more?

 

[Dr. Reef]

so let me make sure i understand you correctly.
You have a 10gal brute container with dry rock in it with saltwater.
You dosed that brute container with bacteria (fritz turbostart 900)

Is there a powerhead or pump moving the water?
temp is stable (heater/chiller)?
Auto top off?

If there is movement in the water, temp is stable within 76-84F and salinity is not swinging wildly then yes bacteria will colonize the rock and cycle the container. But why wouldnt you move the rock into the tank and cycle there?
I would put a pinch of fish food once a week in the brute.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

so let me make sure i understand you correctly.
You have a 10gal brute container with dry rock in it with saltwater.
You dosed that brute container with bacteria (fritz turbostart 900)

Is there a powerhead or pump moving the water?
temp is stable (heater/chiller)?
Auto top off?

If there is movement in the water, temp is stable within 76-84F and salinity is not swinging wildly then yes bacteria will colonize the rock and cycle the container. But why wouldnt you move the rock into the tank and cycle there?
I would put a pinch of fish food once a week in the brute.

Mostly correct, the brute container is 14 gallon but there’s 10 gallons of water in it. There’s an MP10 moving the water in the container. Temperature is 75-76 F. I haven’t put a heater in because temperature doesn’t fluctuate (my apartment is temperature controlled and I’m in Arizona, this time of year is pretty constant). I put a large pinch of fish food in in the first day, I planned to put more when the amonia dropped. I could move the rock into the tank I just figured I’d let it cycle in the brute container to keep any algae blooms out of the tank (even though I will have a new display tank when the rock is ready to go).

 

[Dr. Reef]

got it. I would let it cycle, i think in 2 days you will notice ammonia down to almost 0.
I would redose fritz into the main tank when you move the rock, Transferring will always have some die off and that will increase the ammonia level.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

got it. I would let it cycle, i think in 2 days you will notice ammonia down to almost 0.
I would redose fritz into the main tank when you move the rock, Transferring will always have some die off and that will increase the ammonia level.

Will do. I’ll keep an eye on it when I transfer. You think weekly 100% water changes would help pre-post transfer until the tank settles? Thanks for this thread, extremely helpful.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Water changes wont hurt anything. I wouldn't do 100% till cycle is over with.
You want that free floating bacteria to have enough time to settle and attach to rock.
You can do 25% during cycling.
After cycle 100% is not a big deal making sure air exposure is minimal to the rocks for bacteria to keep alive.

 

[MnFish1]

I did not say what you said was untrue or unfriendly. I said your word choice was unkind. One can communicate truth and kindness. One is not exclusive of the other. I am a rather blunt person myself. I don’t beat around the bush, and I don’t verbally beat folks over the head. I am glad no harm was meant by your comments, and I am happy to see that you seem to have taken no harm by my comments.

I sent you a PM EDIT - I tried to send you a PM but you dont accept PM's lol

 

[MnFish1]

so let me make sure i understand you correctly.
You have a 10gal brute container with dry rock in it with saltwater.
You dosed that brute container with bacteria (fritz turbostart 900)

Is there a powerhead or pump moving the water?
temp is stable (heater/chiller)?
Auto top off?

If there is movement in the water, temp is stable within 76-84F and salinity is not swinging wildly then yes bacteria will colonize the rock and cycle the container. But why wouldnt you move the rock into the tank and cycle there?
I would put a pinch of fish food once a week in the brute.

One thing I thought of - and it would be interesting for @mikeyn or anyone to chime in. If you use only Ammonia and bacteria - Do you favor more autotrophs vs heterotrophs. Conversely, if you use fish food - (or shrimp, etc) which then causes all kinds of bacteria to grow - which THEN produce ammonia - which then causes autotrophic bacteria to grow - do you end up with many more heterotrophs then autotrophs in the tank - which is a less effective cycle?

 

[fermentedhiker]

It was always my impression that the heterotrophic cycle products(such as bagged live sand) were designed with "fish in" cycling in mind(though dead shrimp or ghost feeding might work as well). The idea being that they could keep the tank from becoming toxic long enough for autotrophs to establish themselves. The fish introduced for the cycle would introduce a variety of bacteria from their feces and as long as the heterotrophs didn't crash the tank would sort itself out in reasonable amount of time. The fact that people still used mollies or damsels for this tells me that no one really trusted it to be truly safe. Just an opinion though

 

[MnFish1]

It was always my impression that the heterotrophic cycle products(such as bagged live sand) were designed with "fish in" cycling in mind(though dead shrimp or ghost feeding might work as well). The idea being that they could keep the tank from becoming toxic long enough for autotrophs to establish themselves. The fish introduced for the cycle would introduce a variety of bacteria from their feces and as long as the heterotrophs didn't crash the tank would sort itself out in reasonable amount of time. The fact that people still used mollies or damsels for this tells me that no one really trusted it to be truly safe. Just an opinion though

I think thats true. I have never cycled a tank (I know heresy) the way many people do here. I.e. I have always used a bacterial product (or sand/gravel/part of a filter from another system) and added fish immediately. I have never had a problem. The interesting thing is that there are a lot of new discoveries of different types of bacteria the play a large role in the nitrogen cycle that were previously unknown (the archaea for example - some of which live near hot springs (i.e. they are very resistant to their environment). They are not obligate autotrophs. It may very well mean that some of these bottled products (perhaps not containing autotrophs - we don't really know what they contain) - contain heterotrophs that are as effective as the autotrophs. Its interesting that still in 2018 - new things are being discovered with regards to the nitrogen cycle that has been 'know about' for decades

 

[Dr. Reef]

It was always my impression that the heterotrophic cycle products(such as bagged live sand) were designed with "fish in" cycling in mind(though dead shrimp or ghost feeding might work as well). The idea being that they could keep the tank from becoming toxic long enough for autotrophs to establish themselves. The fish introduced for the cycle would introduce a variety of bacteria from their feces and as long as the heterotrophs didn't crash the tank would sort itself out in reasonable amount of time. The fact that people still used mollies or damsels for this tells me that no one really trusted it to be truly safe. Just an opinion though

I am also with you on this.
Some of these products are not true nitrifier bacteria and are Heterotrophic bacteria.
We know Heterotrophic bacteria cannot cycle a tank on it's own but they do take up ammonia as secondary fuel source primary being carbon.
In theory when you place fish and Heterotrophic bacteria together in a new tank my assumption is that this type of bacteria due to its mass numbers and ability to multiply with as little time as 15 min while true nitrifier bacteria need 15 hrs, they can keep ammonia down long enough till a true nitrifier bacteria establishes a good bio filter and at that point these Heterotrophic bacteria probably start to fade out or cut down to a smaller size to consume a little bit of carbon they can get to.

This is the reason why in my sterile tanks such products did not perform at all till food was introduced and then they performed just as good.

Either way bottom line is that these Heterotrophic bacteria can get a tank going for the moment till true nitrifier bacteria take over but by itself they cannot cycle or hold a cycle.

 

[pecan2phat]

Would the ATM bacteria be considered Heterotrophic?

 

[Hybrid Ken]

I can give you the results thus far of Seachem Stability but I did the old fashion shrimp in the sump not a measured amount of ammonia. The shrimp is still in the back of the sump and I am on week four with no detectable ammonia (was off chart at week two), nitrites at .02 (maxed out at week three) and nitrates down to I believe 10 from a 50 last week. I have full end of week numbers on my tank tablet at work if you would like the full numbers and tank set up info.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@Hybrid Ken
Thank you for sharing and please do share your numbers and tank info.
In my sterile new tank stability failed to reduce 1ppm ammonia. But you have shrimp in the tank which brings carbon source. Unfortunately at the time of my testing I was not aware of the carbon theory and didnt test the first group with it.
I did test the second group of product and they all stalled in sterile tank while made progress when food was introduced.
I am getting ready to test all products again with food from day 1 to see if that make any difference in speed of Cycling.