Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Dr. Reef]

Fritz Turbostart 900 seems to work fastest in my study and condition 9f carbon source doesn't seem to effect it either.
Sterile or not and as high as 8-10ppm of ammonia Turbostart 900 dropped it to 0 in 3 days in my study.

 

[jasonrusso]

Fritz Turbostart 900 seems to work fastest in my study and condition 9f carbon source doesn't seem to effect it either.
Sterile or not and as high as 8-10ppm of ammonia Turbostart 900 dropped it to 0 in 3 days in my study.

I'm trying to deplete a sudden nitrite increase while I am getting my sulfur denitrator online. Hopefully this works!@

 

[Dr. Reef]

Nitrites are not harmful in saltwater.
Also sulfur reactor will put out nitrites till its cycled in. Good luck and do post back your experience.

 

[jasonrusso]

Nitrites are not harmful in saltwater.
Also sulfur reactor will put out nitrites till its cycled in. Good luck and do post back your experience.

Right, but it is a sign that my reactor isn't cycled yet. They are also screwing up my nitrate tests, so I can't check to see if my reactor is working to make the proper adjustments.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Today I met with 3 manufacturers that I tested.
Fritz, Dr Tim, Brightwell
I had an excellent time at aquashella talking to many different manufacturers and vendors along with @brandon429 .
Thank you Brandon for meeting up with me. It was a pleasure.

Dr Tim shared a bunch of material that I will be posting soon.
@mikeyn at Fritz was very welcoming and shared number of details and behind the scene stuff.
I appreciate everyone for their time and information they shared with me.

 

[brandon429]

I have an important request for another future side test

Upper toleration limits of our filtration bac to free ammonia in solution. That's a big deal point nobody agrees on. In 2019, the top aquarists on every board can not and will not agree on what levels of free ammonia suppress, kill, or boost these bacteria

so if any readers want to side test how much ammonia variation these bac can tolerate and still do their job within an expected date, that'll be cutting edge totally new info we can use in future works. The #1 resounding vote I feel 98% of poll takers would choose as the ld50 level is anything at or above 8 ppm. Someone could go mythbusters style on this data...subject a test vessel to verified 8 ppm ammonia for nine days straight, see what happens.

how we would measure impacts matters. my vote is to begin with a system that can pass a 100% water change/ dose to 1 ppm and back to zero in 24 hours. do what you will to it. at the end of the test, change all water, redose back to 1 ppm free ammonia see if it oxidizes overnite still.

 

[Lasse]

I have an important request for another future side test

Upper toleration limits of our filtration bac to free ammonia in solution. That's a big deal point nobody agrees on. In 2019, the top aquarists on every board can not and will not agree on what levels of free ammonia suppress, kill, or boost these bacteria

so if any readers want to side test how much ammonia variation these bac can tolerate and still do their job within an expected date, that'll be cutting edge totally new info we can use in future works. The #1 resounding vote I feel 98% of poll takers would choose as the ld50 level is anything at or above 8 ppm. Someone could go mythbusters style on this data...subject a test vessel to verified 8 ppm ammonia for nine days straight, see what happens.

Just do it (by your self)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I have an important request for another future side test

Upper toleration limits of our filtration bac to free ammonia in solution. That's a big deal point nobody agrees on. In 2019, the top aquarists on every board can not and will not agree on what levels of free ammonia suppress, kill, or boost these bacteria

so if any readers want to side test how much ammonia variation these bac can tolerate and still do their job within an expected date, that'll be cutting edge totally new info we can use in future works. The #1 resounding vote I feel 98% of poll takers would choose as the ld50 level is anything at or above 8 ppm. Someone could go mythbusters style on this data...subject a test vessel to verified 8 ppm ammonia for nine days straight, see what happens.

Well we already know that 8ppm was taken care of by fritz. We already know that at 8 ppm and just rock sand and filter that there was no change I. Ammonia after 7 days. We also know that (I think) dr Tim’s did not work at 8 ppm but did at 2 and 4 ppm. @Dr. Reef can probably expound in it a bit. Btw the ammonia on that other thread must have been much higher than 8

 

[brandon429]

I had suggested above a different way to measure impacts. It was not by measuring the reduction of the wastewater in the test. Im interested in the systems ability to still process waste after the full water change.


Lasse, I don't own test kits for reefing so Im seeing if anyone with the tests wants to use them. if not, that's ok. But the answer is not clear, and if someone would like to make it clear vs ponder it, we have a way to do that. I think for testing validity its important to clear out the wastewater and retest oxidation before making a final conclusion, if anyone has those tests/link me to it

 

[Jason_J]

I had suggested above a different way to measure impacts. It was not by measuring the reduction of the wastewater in the test. Im interested in the systems ability to still process waste after the full water change.


Lasse, I don't own test kits for reefing so Im seeing if anyone with the tests wants to use them. if not, that's ok. But the answer is not clear, and if someone would like to make it clear vs ponder it, we have a way to do that. I think for testing validity its important to clear out the wastewater and retest oxidation before making a final conclusion, if anyone has those tests/link me to it

I'll happily supply you with an ammonia test kit so you can conduct the test. Given your dedication to the hobby and ability to question the common wisdom, I think you would be the perfect person to conduct the test.

 

[brandon429]

What common wisdom are you referring to as a direct link we can read, that seems insincere and only looking for challenge unless you have specific info Ive been shown then bucked.

If you have a link to something we can read in these pages that's been missed, or a different thread that does the full water change assessment- would like to see it. wouldn't have asked the question if I thought the answer was clear. maybe it was ran on page 4 here/forgot, in that case can you be helpful vs attacking?

anyone can invest in a $9 api if needed. we work with cycling tanks in threads that state 8 ppm and still cycle... so I have some counter claims on the matter from actual tanks we've worked. am seeking others work that may be similar to what we see in cycling threads, its not always a challenge as you make it.

If you have some studies to post, where I can see them, then that's helpful and relevant. I have no interest in running an API test, Ill wait until someone else does and then just collect the links.

from top of this page, 8 ppm doesn't appear to be lethal, Dr Reef is stating turbo start still cleared it. This makes me wonder why @MnFish1 thought in this thread that the bac would be dead:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/8-0-ammonia-for-almost-two-months.604736/page-4#post-6106930

 

[MnFish1]

If you have some studies to post, where I can see them, then that's helpful and relevant. I have no interest in running an API test, Ill wait until someone else does and then just collect the links. wouldn't want API where possible, seneye would be better.

had clearly asked to see a post-water change assessment, if nobody is interested then let it die down and don't wonder about it, certainly don't add anything helpful to the post work here...

@brandon429 I agree and disagree with this. I agree that you asked for a post water change assessment in one post (and I believe in the other thread -the OP is doing that) - what I thought you asked for recently was:

so if any readers want to side test how much ammonia variation these bac can tolerate and still do their job within an expected date, that'll be cutting edge totally new info we can use in future works. The #1 resounding vote I feel 98% of poll takers would choose as the ld50 level is anything at or above 8 ppm. Someone could go mythbusters style on this data...subject a test vessel to verified 8 ppm ammonia for nine days straight, see what happens.

Which is what @Dr. Reef has already done (for 7 days) so I pointed you to that study. In that case 8PPM appeared to affect the ability of some of the bacteria to 'work'. At least a couple of the companies have also said ammonia levels should be less than 4 ppm for bacteria to be most effective. To me this is different than what you said in the next sentence:

how we would measure impacts matters. my vote is to begin with a system that can pass a 100% water change/ dose to 1 ppm and back to zero in 24 hours. do what you will to it. at the end of the test, change all water, redose back to 1 ppm free ammonia see if it oxidizes overnite still.

I do not see how this part relates to anything regarding the LD50 of bacteria to ammonia i.e., anything that relates to what you say directly above. Meaning there are multiple requests that you have given - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're requesting -Perhaps this is the reason people are confused.

PS - I believe that There is already data posted on this thread somewhere about what happens after a 100% water change.

 

[MnFish1]

PPS @brandon429. If you have a specific study you want done (or suggested to @Dr. Reef) I would suggest that you lay out the whole thing - i.e. what kind of tank, filter, sand, rock, etc what is the control - what is the test tank, the duration, how often the tests should be done, etc - and then he can decide whether it's worth it.

One of the problems with the anecdotes on your thread is that there is no control group -and everyone is doing things just a bit difference,. Note this is not a slam against you - merely mentioning that just saying 'do this test' is a lot more complicated than it sounds in your posts.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Let me clear up a few things.
1. In my very first test ammonia was over 8ppm. Between API's limit capabilities and my eyes not able to detect the difference between 8 or 10ppm at which the chart maxed out, ammonia could have very well be 12 or 14 or 20 ppm but for sake of testing and for what i thought was closest color and by all means i was not 100% sure, we called it 8ppm.
2. Most all companies said it was too much and it stalled the test. except Fritz that recommended 5-6 ppm to begin with and they were extremely confident that their bacteria will work at 8ppm and it did.

3. To @brandon429 point. You want me to start a sterile tank, cycle it with bacteria, do a 100% water change, then dose ammonia to 1ppm and wait 24 hrs to see if it drops to 0 again (Uptill this point testing has already been done and it shows bacteria drops ammonia to 0) then what do you want me to do from there on i am understanding?

 

[MnFish1]

What common wisdom are you referring to as a direct link we can read, that seems insincere and only looking for challenge unless you have specific info Ive been shown then bucked.

Brandon you have at least once said that 95 percent of people think these 'new ideas' are incorrect but it takes the 5% who are willing to experiment to advance the hobby (paraphrased)

 

[MnFish1]

Let me clear up a few things.
1. In my very first test ammonia was over 8ppm. Between API's limit capabilities and my eyes not able to detect the difference between 8 or 10ppm at which the chart maxed out, ammonia could have very well be 12 or 14 or 20 ppm but for sake of testing and for what i thought was closest color and by all means i was not 100% sure, we called it 8ppm.
2. Most all companies said it was too much and it stalled the test. except Fritz that recommended 5-6 ppm to begin with and they were extremely confident that their bacteria will work at 8ppm and it did.

3. To @brandon429 point. You want me to start a sterile tank, cycle it with bacteria, do a 100% water change, then dose ammonia to 1ppm and wait 24 hrs to see if it drops to 0 again (Uptill this point testing has already been done and it shows bacteria drops ammonia to 0) then what do you want me to do from there on i am understanding?

Didn't you already do this at least once? i.e. the 100% water change. Frankly - I see no relation to this test and the idea that 8PPM or higher ammonia affects bacteria levels. This is the same problem as in the other thread - where the OP has '8 ppm ammonia' but in reality - the ammonia top reading on the test is 8.0 - so his ammonia might be 30 for all we know.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Didn't you already do this at least once?

Yes i have done this before and bacteria was able to oxidize 1ppm ammonia to 0 in 1.5 days after doing a 100% water changes in a bacteria cycled sterile tank. Uptil this point testing has been done so i am confused if he wants me to do do a 2nd water change (100%) and redose 1 ppm ammonia and see if bacteria still oxidizes it? not sure

 

[brandon429]

Nice summary Dr Reef the pages have grown so fast I didn't realize you had worked at 8 ppm. awesome, just linked it to the pertinent thread. Mn felt strongly 8 ppm would kill the bac, and I didn't recall that already being tested here...perhaps he didn't either

what a helpful thread reference you've been managing here, we'll need summaries from time to time ~
B

for any testing I didn't think it had to be a sterile system, just any system that we know has ample surface area and we know to be cycled already. Then insult the bac in various ways, 100% wc and re test. ***it seems you've already found some numbers above though, test might be redundant. Anyone that knows me should know I don't think 8 ppm would kill them, was just stating the passions from this very thread, and it led me here bc I knew this is a great reference source:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/8-0-ammonia-for-almost-two-months.604736/

Look at how 99% of the posters feel his cycle is wrecked. Bac cannot be there. In a tank of green water, and 60 days with massive ammonia feeding, there can be no bac. Some very powerful aquarists posted there, and they all think the bac are dead.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Just do it (by your self)

Sincerely Lasse

A lot of research has been done about ammonia tolerance of bacteria, AOB, NOB . Also concerning Archaea. A lot of such information is available.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes i have done this before and bacteria was able to oxidize 1ppm ammonia to 0 in 1.5 days after doing a 100% water changes in a bacteria cycled sterile tank. Uptil this point testing has been done so i am confused if he wants me to do do a 2nd water change (100%) and redose 1 ppm ammonia and see if bacteria still oxidizes it? not sure

Right - I wrote to him that you had already done it. I think he wants (but he can tell us) a test as well with varying levels of ammonia - to see where it starts to inhibit nitrification.