Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[MnFish1]

I agree with you @MnFish1 and also the concern by @IslandLifeReef
It's best to finish out this last round the way it was designed to conclude best of 3 results.
So I have a solution. I run this last test as is with the previous doses done before for this round 3.
Then I can reset and match doses as islandlifereef suggests and see the difference.
By the way in 8ppm test we did dose and double the dose to see if it made a difference. But those are side notes/studies.
I have enough product on hand and thanks to Fritz I have some more on the way.
Prodibio is the last 2 vials left. I don't mind buying from brs when next study is conducted as it was shipped from Europe and took a while to get it. It will also show if longer duration of shipping might have had an effect on it.

Again set up a go fund me or I will help by paypal

 

[MnFish1]

Here are the instructions for Dr Tim's One and Only:

Directions for Use:
SHAKE WELL BEFORE USING.
FOR BEST RESULTS, USE THE ENTIRE CONTENTS AT ONE TIME.
Minimum dose: 10 ml per 10 gallons of aquarium water.
Cannot be overdosed.

I was pointing out that the test was using the minimum amount, not the recommended dosage. The recommended dosage is the entire bottle. A 2 oz bottle, 60 ml, treats up to a 30 gal tank per the instructions.

Now here are the Fritzyme instructions:

Shake bottle, add 1 oz. (29 ml) TurboStart® per 25 gallons (95 L) of water.

On the Fritzyme, the recommended dose was used. With Dr. Tim's, the minimum dose was used.

I agree it’s confusing and hard to compare

 

[Dr. Reef]

its all in the wording. Dr Tim says minimum dose is 10 ml per 10 gal and can be used as much as you want.
fritz says use 29.5 ml per 25 gal that is their instruction and says can be dosed 5 times the amount so in that statement i consider that as 29.5 ml per 25 gal as their minimum.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

its all in the wording. Dr Tim says minimum dose is 10 ml per 10 gal and can be used as much as you want.
fritz says use 29.5 ml per 25 gal that is their instruction and says can be dosed 5 times the amount so in that statement i consider that as 29.5 ml per 25 gal as their minimum.

Using that same logic, Dr. Tim's says "FOR BEST RESULTS, USE THE ENTIRE CONTENTS AT ONE TIME."

Fritzyme Turbostart 900 says 29.5 ml per 25 gal and "To decrease cycling time, FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 can be safely used up to 5x recommended dosage."

So, if you were trying to get the best results out of both products in a 5 gal tank by following the manufacturers directions, you would use 30 ml of Fritzyme and the whole 60 ml bottle of Dr. Tim's.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

One more quick question. If you were trying to cycle a 220L tank and saw the following chart for Dr, Tim's, what size bottle would you buy?

I would think that most people would purchase a 4oz bottle based on that chart. However, if you only follow the minimum dosing recommendations, a 2oz bottle would be fine.

 

[MnFish1]

Using that same logic, Dr. Tim's says "FOR BEST RESULTS, USE THE ENTIRE CONTENTS AT ONE TIME."

Fritzyme Turbostart 900 says 29.5 ml per 25 gal and "To decrease cycling time, FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 can be safely used up to 5x recommended dosage."

So, if you were trying to get the best results out of both products in a 5 gal tank by following the manufacturers directions, you would use 30 ml of Fritzyme and the whole 60 ml bottle of Dr. Tim's.

Yes - you're correct. I think that the first experiment is using the 'normal directions'. I think the second experiment should be the maximum dose. I think you're right. There is clearly going to be a dose issue. The problem is - what is the average person going to do? I have only used stability - so I dont know - but are there different sizes of Dr. Tim's? If each size says 'for best results use the whole contents - that doesnt make sense - there must be some recommendation for 'tank size' (unless there is only one size bottle of Dr. Tims)

 

[MnFish1]

I

One more quick question. If you were trying to cycle a 220L tank and saw the following chart for Dr, Tim's, what size bottle would you buy?

I would think that most people would purchase a 4oz bottle based on that chart. However, if you only follow the minimum dosing recommendations, a 2oz bottle would be fine.

I guess it depends on what the rest of the chart says. a 60 gallon tank - with rock, sand, etc is really a 45 gallon tank. I mean lets say you bought a 10 oz bottle - according to what you said - it says for best results use the whole bottle the instructions from Dr. Tim's don't make sense in any case (that I can see)

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I

I guess it depends on what the rest of the chart says. a 60 gallon tank - with rock, sand, etc is really a 45 gallon tank. I mean lets say you bought a 10 oz bottle - according to what you said - it says for best results use the whole bottle the instructions from Dr. Tim's don't make sense in any case (that I can see)

That is the whole chart.

I agree that the Dr Tim's instructions leave too much room for interpretation, though, if the only bottle I could purchase was a 10 oz bottle, then yes, I would use the whole thing. @Dr. Reef mentioned that he saw better results when he tried to get the solution from the bottom of the bottle. My guess is the reason Dr. Tim's says for best results, use the entire bottle, is that there is a great variance in the density of the bacteria clusters and the only way to be sure that you get everything you need is to use the entire bottle.

 

[Amoo]

That's an interesting theory @IslandLifeReef . I wonder if we will see something similar play out in the Fritz9K vs Fritz9 for that very same reason.

 

[Dr. Reef]

i dosed this morning according to previously dosed amounts to carry the consistency in the test as it will the final round (best of 3).
I will reset after this study and use max amounts like @IslandLifeReef has suggested. will compare the results.

 

[MnFish1]

That is the whole chart.

I agree that the Dr Tim's instructions leave too much room for interpretation, though, if the only bottle I could purchase was a 10 oz bottle, then yes, I would use the whole thing. @Dr. Reef mentioned that he saw better results when he tried to get the solution from the bottom of the bottle. My guess is the reason Dr. Tim's says for best results, use the entire bottle, is that there is a great variance in the density of the bacteria clusters and the only way to be sure that you get everything you need is to use the entire bottle.

I don’t know the cost of dr Tim’s but if you use 10 oz for a 5 gallon tank that’s cost prohibitive. That’s why it seems it’s best to try the recommended doses and then the max dose. Because then it becomes a cost benefit thing as well. You could also go with the idea that the fritz has already been proven to work at the recommended dose. So it would also be interesting to compare fritz at normal dose vs the others at max. Again just shoving this out there for theoretical discussion not to change any part of the experiment. The problem comes in when you try to design a study to make the results come out a certain way rather than choosing the hypothesis and designing the study to test it. The initial hypothesis in this study was bacteria in a bottle doesn’t work (disproven). What is the next hypothesis being tested?

1. I think fritz is the best product and therefore we can use it at a lower dose and possibly lower cost and get as good or better results than other products at maximum dose, so the study should compare max dose of all the products and the standard dose of fritz

2. I think that it’s biased to use a high bacteria concentration product and compare it to other products with lower bacteria so we should test the maximum recommended dose against fritz maximum dose

The issue is that there are like 500 potential hypotheses that could be made. It it makes for an interesting discussion. While awaiting results

 

[sawyer010]

so how about fuval?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Fluval is on the list for group 2

 

[maevepotter]

Has anyone used ARCReef's product? Sorry if I missed it. Long thread. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0782W75RD/ref=ox_sc_act_image_3?smid=A97KPU0187JF1&psc=1?

 

[Dr. Reef]

@maevepotter never used it nor heard of it. Its first time I've seen it. Maybe someone else may have experience with it.

 

[Dr. Reef]

So guys about 3.5 days back I started my last of 3 round. I started each tank with 1 ppm ammonia.
As of this morning

1. Fritz ammonia is 0
2. Dr. Tim ammonia is 0.5
3. Seed ammonia is 1
4. Prodibio is also 1
5. Control is also 1

I am going to conclude this round in another 3 days. Then reset for group 2.

 

[Victoria M]

So guys about 3.5 days back I started my last of 3 round. I started each tank with 1 ppm ammonia.
As of this morning

1. Fritz ammonia is 0
2. Dr. Tim ammonia is 0.5
3. Seed ammonia is 1
4. Prodibio is also 1
5. Control is also 1

I am going to conclude this round in another 3 days. Then reset for group 2.

Still interesting to me. Hey, I read on another thread that you ordered 30 fish or so from LA. We were chatting about recent troubles with parasites. And I was thinking about this thread...do you work in the hobby or is this your obsession? lol

 

[Dr. Reef]

Lol obsession.

 

[MnFish1]

Hey when does the seneye thing atart

 

[Dr. Reef]

I got them in yesterday and waiting to finish this study. I am guessing 2 weeks from now.