Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Msteven1]

I have never seen that documented in twenty years of daily online reefing. Unassisted cycling happens sooner than your time frame, tbd, but I'd have bet the farm it'd take ninety days. I'm so happy to see that

Cycling charts were written for freshwater

You're providing data for a saltwater one the hobby doesn't have yet

Thanks Brandon. I’ve only been in the hobby for a few years. I enjoy reading the experiments in these threads.
I’m a Mechanical Engineer, so I do have exposure to running experiments. Design of experiments type, multiple factor analysis with interactions and noise taken into consideration.
I saw an opportunity to offer a new condition and thought some may be interested.

 

[brandon429]

in my opinion its such good data that aquabiomics should want to send out a free sample pack to see what kinds selected for the biofilm on the rocks.

learning which clades accomplish this task from fw/saltwater origination sources is truly new territory for the hobby. The all natural biology is the most fascinating one

I truly thought that by being farther inland, bacteria that select for salt would be reduced and thereby take a long time to build up at the salinities we run

a dual purpose origination source for free bacteria is being shown. something worldwide is just adapting when the charts say, or darn close.

Dr. Tim says here in early pages Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread that water prep alone is the most likely contamination source, not from the air. we got to have a brief chat with him

messing around with non boiled water = free cycling bac, and then Im sure some gets in via dirt on hands/wafts etc but the majority it seems are translocated in water as standard contamination. I used to undertake air sampling in large meat warehouses and we always found aerosolized bacteria, and by association some of those will be these mystery clades that literally carry an entry reef tank bioload if we ask them to

or if we ask them to cycle up a turtle tank, can do. half the time.

goose em with some work ammonia lets see how strong

 

[Msteven1]

in my opinion its such good data that aquabiomics should want to send out a free sample pack to see what kinds selected for the biofilm on the rocks.

learning which clades accomplish this task from fw/saltwater origination sources is truly new territory for the hobby. The all natural biology is the most fascinating one

I truly thought that by being farther inland, bacteria that select for salt would be reduced and thereby take a long time to build up at the salinities we run

a dual purpose origination source for free bacteria is being shown. something worldwide is just adapting when the charts say, or darn close.

Dr. Tim says here in early pages Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread that water prep alone is the most likely contamination source, not from the air. we got to have a brief chat with him

messing around with non boiled water = free cycling bac, and then Im sure some gets in via dirt on hands/wafts etc but the majority it seems are translocated in water as standard contamination. I used to undertake air sampling in large meat warehouses and we always found aerosolized bacteria, and by association some of those will be these mystery clades that literally carry an entry reef tank bioload if we ask them to

or if we ask them to cycle up a turtle tank, can do. half the time.

goose em with some work ammonia lets see how strong

Water prep comment makes me curious as to “contamination” in my mixing container.
A 5 year old Brute trash can that I’ve had to clean due to what I assume to be impurities from the salt mix.
it is supplied with 0 TDS RODI water from another trash can of the same age.
I store my salt water and RODI for weeks, if not months.

I realize I’ve ventured away from the subject of this thread. Perhaps I should post somewhere else?

 

[brandon429]

no its ok. we had pretty much exhausted the bottle bac portion, this is a big picture tie-in to microbiology in general in my opinion its ok

 

[MnFish1]

Just for more information. I waited 5 min per instructions for the 24 hour picture.

here is color after waiting 20 minutes

Is there a a maximum time limit to API tests? Definite change in color, but still shows movement compared to yesterday.

You need to read it at the time the instructions say. My strong feeling is that 99.999 percent of the errors with API test kits are becasue of errors performing the test by the user. There is no magic comparing their methods and for example Red-Sea IMO

 

[MnFish1]

Water prep comment makes me curious as to “contamination” in my mixing container.
A 5 year old Brute trash can that I’ve had to clean due to what I assume to be impurities from the salt mix.
it is supplied with 0 TDS RODI water from another trash can of the same age.
I store my salt water and RODI for weeks, if not months.

I realize I’ve ventured away from the subject of this thread. Perhaps I should post somewhere else?

It is clear - that 'stuff' can grow in RODI containers. For example - I have algae growing on the side of my tank. My assumption is that it is fixing N2 from the atmosphere to grow. The only thing in the container is 0 TDS RODI. yet the stuff has to be cleaned off periodically. There is most certainly bacteria that can be put into a tank with RODI

 

[Msteven1]

48 hour reading after dosing ammonia. Time for livestock.
Since I already have the Microbacter 7, I will add it with the fish, start feeding and adding more fish over the next two months. Lights out.
Then dose with with another bacteria product, perhaps Vibrant and wait two months, then lights on.
Thoughts??

 

[brandon429]

your tank can handle any arrangement you'd throw at it, with the surface area from rocks and sand right in the flow, you're as locked in as maverick was on the mig

soon I want to release my favorite microbiology threads/ top ten proofing threads & this finding from your system will be in the permanent top three assured.

 

[brandon429]

Vibrant can't hurt anything, or outcompete that which has established, not sure if it helps reduce uglies but its popular due to collecting some wins that's accurate to say. its work threads are large and about 80% happy. and for the 20% unhappy we pounce on it relentlessly lol but its a great product, tops in valonia control in the whole hobby Ive seen nothing beat bubble algae better.

 

[Msteven1]

Vibrant can't hurt anything, or outcompete that which has established, not sure if it helps reduce uglies but its popular due to collecting some wins that's accurate to say. its work threads are large and about 80% happy. and for the 20% unhappy we pounce on it relentlessly lol but its a great product, tops in valonia control in the whole hobby Ive seen nothing beat bubble algae better.

I'm thinking it as a "sludge" eater for maintenance the first year (BRS). I think Microbacter Clean is the same idea. I'd just like multiple types of bacteria introduced and let them fight it out.

 

[MnFish1]

Vibrant can't hurt anything, or outcompete that which has established, not sure if it helps reduce uglies but its popular due to collecting some wins that's accurate to say. its work threads are large and about 80% happy. and for the 20% unhappy we pounce on it relentlessly lol but its a great product, tops in valonia control in the whole hobby Ive seen nothing beat bubble algae better.

Vibrant killed multiple corals in my tank - so I beg to differ. (or at least the byproducts of what the vibrant killed)

 

[brandon429]

that stinks I didn't recall yours being part of that lot. on the thread 'vibrant killing corals' there was quite a tussle but I didn't mind it so much in a cycling tank was thinking if its messing with early corals he'll catch it and stop using if needed.

It is accurate to say Vibrant is not hitting homeruns here:

Vibrant Killing Corals..

I had a lot of coraline die off as well. I did 3 ICP tests during the vibrant dosing and I can tell you that even though I was dosing the Red Sea trace elements program based off calc demand, my results showed undetectable amounts of iodine and iron. Potassium was very low as well. I did stop...

www.reef2reef.com

*still I would recommend it for any reef about to lose to valonia here's why: this above is in my opinion about at 20% risk in a loaded tank

they're getting about 80% safe use in the masses im seeing, and about 98% cyano tradeoffs lol but no wipeouts like that top one report above about 20% of the time or less imo.

 

[MnFish1]

Answer to the above question is none of the above! https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.1959.4.2.0128

Even non "probiotic" reef salt if evaporated from the ocean contains more dormant bacteria than those bottles. Just another way for companies to sell products. I use 250ml of real north atlantic ocean water it cycles the tank established microfauna without any hitchikers thatll live in my warm reefbefore anyone says it yes the vast majority of the bacteria does.

It may contain lots of 'bacteria' (everything on earth does), but nitrifying bacteria do not survive 'dry conditions'. Thus, evaporated reef salt from the ocean would not contain dormant nitrifying bacteria. Additionally, high 'salt' concentrations kills bacteria Thus, as ocean water evaporates a lot of the bacteria would be killed (of any type). There are lots of people that just put water in a tank and over weeks it cycles on its own. So - I am not sure that adding 250 ml or ocean water to a tank is doing much. And - doesn't it seem like 'North Atlantic' microfauna would not do well in a reef-type tank?

 

[MnFish1]

I just popped in here to say exactly the same thing.

I haven't read all of this thread but I was trying to conduct an old school cycle just using ammonium choride with no bottled bacteria. Everything was going well but then the winter storm hit Texas. I lost power for 4 days and the tank temperature plummeted. I had to leave my apartment so removed about 75% of the water, as I was concerned about it freezing. When I returned, I refilled the tank and tried to carry on.

I dosed some more ammonium chloride and the next day returned a dark purple nitrite test result (with API this could have been anything from 2ppm upwards). I was hopeful that this meant that some of the bacteria had survived the low temperatures and the ammonia test did appear to drop again but then became 'stuck' at 0.25ppm for several days. I then thought that maybe the nitrite reading was just left over from the small amount of water that was present in the water that I had left in the tank from the earlier cycling attempt. I have read about the problems with the API ammonia test and have also read that nitrite levels might not be relevant, but I was hoping for a nitrite drop to show that my disturbed cycle was still progressing, as I was unsure what was going on considering the strange circumstances. With CUC and some corals already ordered I wanted to get the parameters under control ASAP so bought a bottle of bio-spira.

Within 12 hours my Ammonia read 0 using the API test (which did give me some renewed confidence in the API test). 2 days later and nitrite is still the same. Now this might be because it got so high that it is taking time to come down, or it could be that the bio-spira has done nothing to help the nitrite levels.

So I am 50% convinced. It did appear that the bio-spira did get my ammonia levels under control very quickly, so my tank presumably can now support livestock, but it also says on the bottle that it 'reduces nitrite toxicity'. I've no idea what this means in practical terms and whether it does anything to speed up the reduction in nitrite levels.

I would follow the directions on the bottle. I do not believe that biospira is designed to be used the way you did. If you want to use ammonia - use Dr. Tim's and follow those directions. Biospira is designed to be added to the tank with fish. I do not believe you can use the same instructions for Dr. Tim's as Biospira. But at least your tank si cycled. I think this is a problem with a lot of comments on these bacteria threads - people do not exactly follow the instructions - thinking all the products are identical,

 

[N.Sreefer]

It may contain lots of 'bacteria' (everything on earth does), but nitrifying bacteria do not survive 'dry conditions'. Thus, evaporated reef salt from the ocean would not contain dormant nitrifying bacteria. Additionally, high 'salt' concentrations kills bacteria Thus, as ocean water evaporates a lot of the bacteria would be killed (of any type). There are lots of people that just put water in a tank and over weeks it cycles on its own. So - I am not sure that adding 250 ml or ocean water to a tank is doing much. And - doesn't it seem like 'North Atlantic' microfauna would not do well in a reef-type tank?

Off hand Halobacterium sp from the dead sea lives at 8.6 times the concentration of sea salt

 

[MnFish1]

Off hand Halobacterium sp from the dead sea lives at 8.6 times the concentration of sea salt

well - Evaporated sea salt is pure salt with no water. So its infinitely more concentrated than 'salt water' - which is what I assume you mean. Evaporated sea salt is not the same as 'Dead Sea water' - o am I missing something. IN any case - The point is not whether any bacteria can live in dry sea salt - the point was whether nitrifies can live in dry sea salt.

 

[MnFish1]

Off hand Halobacterium sp from the dead sea lives at 8.6 times the concentration of sea salt

BTW - just out of interest - I looked into this - there are certain 'artisan salts' used in cooking that have certain bacteria present (halo bacteria almost exclusively) - that can actually grow in cheese, etc. They have found up to 4000 colonies/ teaspoon of certain of these bacteria - especially if the salt is not evaporated fully. In any case - I doubt any of these bacteria would help/hurt a cycle in a tank. (JMHO). It was an interesting read

 

[Msteven1]

Vibrant killed multiple corals in my tank - so I beg to differ. (or at least the byproducts of what the vibrant killed)

Now I see BRS is promoting vibrant maintenance dosing. I used it on my biocube and yes, cyano is a given.
I think I’ll just grab a handful of garden dirt and throw it in the sump.

 

[brandon429]

@Msteven1

hey S
using your findings it’s still going to take me ten years to convince 5% of the hobby a cycle cannot be starved

you can show someone your link, ask them to find and source out any null proof (show any cycle on the internet that’s ever been starved out, I’ll show it to be a simple and common misread test) and they still don’t believe a cycle cannot self starve. We have been trained to be buyers for so long, it will persist.


but 5% will be hip to the game that’s assured.

your quick data point log is very important for the hobby, it’s our last vestige of truth before we become totally dependent on the man to sell us things so water bac can be alive~

 

[Msteven1]

@Msteven1

hey S
using your findings it’s still going to take me ten years to convince 5% of the hobby a cycle cannot be starved

you can show someone your link, ask them to find and source out any null proof (show any cycle on the internet that’s ever been starved out, I’ll show it to be a simple and common misread test) and they still don’t believe a cycle cannot self starve. We have been trained to be buyers for so long, it will persist.


but 5% will be hip to the game that’s assured.

your quick data point log is very important for the hobby, it’s our last vestige of truth before we become totally dependent on the man to sell us things so water bac can be alive~

Hi Brandon, I'm happy to have provided information! Very fortunate to have found this thread at the perfect time and status of my tank.