Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[brandon429]

Im always searching for something sleepydoc that nobody who says that above will provide, hopefully you will

can you link where that mechanism above has ever been written about in a cycling article, book or blog specifically for marine aquariums, exclude info for freshwater.

because with that action MSteven1 did, placed alongside stall risk videos from Dr. Tim above and the fact all known cycle training says if you don’t feed things stall and die, for the love of Pete Id like to see where the training we are given says it’s possible prior to MStevens post

as of yesterday we did five pages of battle in the chemistry forum with all top chemists claiming self cycling will specifically not work, for pages they railed against my claims. Wasn’t near as accepted as it was here


any video will do, or magazine post, or even any thread from the entire internet, let’s see the commonality in action- where is it listed as a cycling option to not feed, not dose, and still get a cycle in sixty days. Show where someone plotted this out for marine tanks


all the folks who quickly accept a change from stall risk cycling to of course cycles can’t stall, they self acquire all needs, haven’t been able to link me this prior option training so far. I knew it was possible too like you did, and MNFish, I want to see where training manuals that influence buying habits taught it to new reefers and delineated it’s time scale. Cant wait to see where it’s written

 

[brandon429]

Once we get the link showing this well known aspect of cycling options @Sleepydoc then we will have material to contrast with the massive bottle bac sales machine which currently writes 100% of referenced training material. Im positive the current training available to all searchers is add bottle bac, add ammonia to 2 ppm, wait as long as it takes for api to show hard yellow zero ammonia, absolutely zero nitrite or your cycle will stall, and add more bacteria if either of the two params don’t line up halfway or make salinity and temp adjustments, so your cycle doesn’t stall.

I’m thinking you’re about to have trouble providing the link/read/reference because this type of free cycling directly contraindicates paying for bottle bac.



But if there’s lots of material about free cycling in reefing then that’s not the case.


the knowledge you reference is for freshwater not salt, that’s what I’m thinking. If we don’t see printed material on free cycling today, or in the future, then that means something regarding MSteven’s patience and work in showing us new ways as I’d mentioned when thanking him.

I have been looking for the reference material for reefing for twenty years online and never seen it once, if you pull off a link in an hour or two I’ll be mass jealous on your hunt skills lol

also not written about in linkable cycling training, the live rock skip cycle option (what runs all MACNA conventions for example)

again I will state: all available training material involves purchasing bottle bac, adding ammonia to 2 ppm in all cases, waiting for api to clear and never considering misread options, and mitigating physical aspects of the tank to avoid stalling. That is 100% of today’s available cycle training. The only people veering from this purchase alignment are the shippers of ocean cured rocks and they show how to handle reverse cycling/curing pretty well. That is the sole deviation available to read (other than web posts) for options different than purchase- based reef cycling.

 

[brandon429]

we can also accept any prior web post from someone who knew about the option, and typed it out as a casual mention in a cycling post. I'm wanting to make the data pool we can accept so vast and wide that there wouldn't be a reason to not link an example by lunchtime today, for example. its the delay in delivery that always gets me...


its not that this information isn't common knowledge, its that the information has been actively excluded from all cycle training. I actually remember Dr. Tim mentioning free cycling briefly in his cycling video, but I did not see timelines discussed, inability to stall discussed, and I saw no comparison of equivalent cycles between bottled ones and sixty day waits. only the briefest possible mention is all I can recall in twenty years.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I consider it a helper, not necessity

 

[brandon429]

Sleepydoc based on the delay of links, we can all easily agree its not common knowledge whatsoever and that MSteven1 did a service to the hobby by revealing an expected completion scale where that had not existed for marine aquariums prior. It would have been ideal in years past for those familiar with the option to mention it/use it and report to the web.

anyone reading, start a poll in the general forum and ask the public if unassisted cycling is possible given any wait time whatsoever. response rate: 95% NO

is that coincidence? would that major thought process in reefers sell more or less bottle bac to fill the knowledge void?

 

[MnFish1]

Im always searching for something sleepydoc that nobody who says that above will provide, hopefully you will

can you link where that mechanism above has ever been written about in a cycling article, book or blog specifically for marine aquariums, exclude info for freshwater.

because with that action MSteven1 did, placed alongside stall risk videos from Dr. Tim above and the fact all known cycle training says if you don’t feed things stall and die, for the love of Pete Id like to see where the training we are given says it’s possible prior to MStevens post

as of yesterday we did five pages of battle in the chemistry forum with all top chemists claiming self cycling will specifically not work, for pages they railed against my claims. Wasn’t near as accepted as it was here


any video will do, or magazine post, or even any thread from the entire internet, let’s see the commonality in action- where is it listed as a cycling option to not feed, not dose, and still get a cycle in sixty days. Show where someone plotted this out for marine tanks


all the folks who quickly accept a change from stall risk cycling to of course cycles can’t stall, they self acquire all needs, haven’t been able to link me this prior option training so far. I knew it was possible too like you did, and MNFish, I want to see where training manuals that influence buying habits taught it to new reefers and delineated it’s time scale. Cant wait to see where it’s written

Here is an extremely interesting article (I posted it a couple (years?) ago. from Purdue University. I believe it is an older article - but - posted only to show that these issues have been being discussed scientifically (and if you google it) - in the reefing community for decades.

Some tidbits:

1. The idea that nitrifiers are basically immotile is not true, instead they can use flagella to propel themselves.
2. "Under certain conditions, however, it is conceivable that the complete nitrification reaction could become disrupted, with elevated levels developing for one or more of the intermediates. A variety of stress conditions might promote this type of disruption, including oxygen deprivation or toxin presence. These factors, and their resultant impacts, will be discussed in subsequent sections of this paper."
3. "Another important characteristic is that nitrifiers are able to shift into their maximal activity range at a distinctly lower substrate concentration (i.e., at approximately one percent the concentration required by heterotrophs). For nitrifiers, this characteristic might be considered analogous to a `light switch' phenomenon, working either full-on or full-off, without much of a metabolic intermediate."
4. " Indeed, energy procurement for these resting nitrifiers would probably depend more so upon external substrate availability than the mobilization and uptake of nitrogenous substrates found inside these cells. Resting nitrifying bacteria might consequently be expected to decay at a far lower pace than that which would be expected for heterotrophs. Correspondingly,indications within our contemporary literature that nitrifiers decay at a rate comparable to that of heterotrophs appear to be erroneous. In fact, unpublished values appear to be considerably lower (at about 0.01 to 0.02 days-1; Alleman, et al., 1991)."
5. "In turn, `nitritifiers' may well have the ability to degrade industrial and hazardous wastes, at least to some extent. Unpublished estimates of this activity suggest that `nitritifiers' might be capable of degrading as much as one-tenth the weight of their daily nitrogen uptake in the form of co-metabolized hydrocarbons (Hyman, 1991)."
6. Summary
Ammonia toxicity to fish contained within aquaculture systems can be reliably alleviated with biological nitrification, whereby excreted ammonia is successively oxidized to nitrite and nitrate. Given sufficient space and time, these nitrifiers can routinely scavenge ammonia from a recirculating flow passed over their attached media habitat. However, these microorganism have certain environmental preferences which must be routinely satisfied, including: elevated dissolved oxygen, neutral to slightly alkaline pH, and moderate temperature. Attention must also be given to their interaction with other bacteria, and specifically those who thrive on residual organic matter. These latter microbes can overwhelm the slower growing nitrifiers, overcrowding their niche and stifling their metabolism. These problems, however, can be minimized by providing additional media able to accommodate both groups by spreading their population over a greater, and effectively more viable, surface area."

 

[brandon429]

You did a good job finding that

but don't oversell a university study that has to be searched out ten pages either as if we are teaching this option to cyclers


they're being taught stalls and reinforcements.

can you find this in cycle training we would ever see from a sage or experienced poster? You watched the chemists disagree with unassisted cycling for pages recently (its algae not bac, the bac will starve without feed, on and on)


we still haven't seen it from any cycle training a new reader would reasonably encounter.


Still though, you found something and we weren't going to get anything if you had not looked. well done. I'm subbed for future postings, you found something related to unassisted cycling and that was a dang good job. I did search and was unable to find something so pointful.

 

[MnFish1]

PS according to the article I posted above - vis a vis 'salinity' "Nitrifiers have a sizable range of tolerable osmotic pressures, ranging from fresh to saline, depending on the particular genus form. Furthermore, many nitrifiers seem able to rapidly switch from one salt level to another with little impact on their activity. Within most nitrifying reactor systems, however, it is likely that they will become acclimated to an osmotic pressure which varies relatively little over time, even given the dynamics associated with makeup water addition. In turn, this parameter should not represent a particularly important concern."

 

[brandon429]

whoever wrote that is my innate deep friend though they do not know that or would even likely reciprocate.

 

[MnFish1]

You did a good job finding that

but don't oversell a university study that has to be searched out ten pages either as if we are teaching this option to cyclers


they're being taught stalls and reinforcements.

can you find this in cycle training we would ever see from a sage or experienced poster? You watched the chemists disagree with unassisted cycling for pages recently (its algae not bac, the bac will starve without feed, on and on)


we still haven't seen it from any cycle training a new reader would reasonably encounter.


Still though, you found something and we weren't going to get anything if you had not looked. well done. I'm subbed for future postings, you found something related to unassisted cycling and that was a dang good job.

Well it was a review article - so I picked out some of the things we discussed here already. I thought you asked for "can you link where that mechanism above has ever been written about in a cycling article, book or blog specifically for marine aquariums, exclude info for freshwater." - This was for marine fish-farming - so I thought it counted.

 

[brandon429]

this really helps balance out information/options in one of the best cycling threads anyone could ever read for one hundred pages.

 

[brandon429]

also

thanks for withholding that when Lasse had me in an arm bar heh.

 

[MnFish1]

whoever wrote that is my innate deep friend though they do not know that or would even likely reciprocate.

Well - number 2 - does not really agree with your philosophy (in that it implies that 'stalled cycles' can occur due to stress on the bacterial population.

I actually thought most of the article was common knowledge - and I posted it (perhaps even in this thread) months ago. My understanding is that 1) nitrifies do die without food - but its much slower than previously thought. 2). Cold temperature lengthens this process. 3). Once placed back in a proper environment (temp, oxygen, etc etc., they rapidly recover.

But, @brandon429 wanted a reefing source (there are many) From a post (2011) - Aquarium advice: "
"Everyone needs to do some more research on this topic.

First, experience-wise, my qt stays fully cycled to 5ppm and I only add ammonia maybe once a week. In additon, I have helped people who have had tanks sit full of water but no ammonia source from anywhere from 1 to 3 months. All of these tanks 'recycled' within a few days to 2wks max.

Second, nitrifying bacteria does not go 'dormant'- its either alive or dead, thats it. To kill them, you can dry them, freeze them or boil them, but starvation actually takes quite a long time happen. Heres some links with the science behind starvation of nitrifying bacteria. Its been proven scientifically that they can survive from weeks to a year without a food source (ammonia).'

Transcription of All amoC Copies Is Associated with Recovery of Nitrosomonas europaea from Ammonia Starvation
Influence of Starvation on Potential Ammonia-Oxidizing Activity and amoA mRNA Levels of Nitrosospira briensis
Cell density-regulated recovery of starved biofilm populations of ammonia-oxidizing bacteria.
Effect of long-term ammonia starvation on the oxid... [J Biochem. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.aseanenvironment.info/Abstract/41016439.pdf
Effect of Long-Term Ammonia Starvation on the Oxidation of Ammonia and Hydroxylamine by Nitrosomonas europaea

 

[brandon429]

extremely nice job I cannot wait to grab from that and link it furiously next week in the chem forum

 

[parkwaytrash]

Watching, reading and learning!!!

 

[brandon429]

this thread has a wide-scale span of cycling info. I'm still on link 3 of MN's post they're great biology. options for cycling a reef tank include:

100% free and unassisted ways, with a known completion timeframe maximum that doesn't starve, stall or fail to establish they're simply free, and without consequence for having been selected and has the same quality ends given a couple months that bottle bac cycling/paid for cycling would attain

or

cost-based options where bacteria are paid for and imported not by sheer requirement- but wanted as a customization such as skip cycle bioload carry or diversity/heterogeneity goals.

 

[Msteven1]

@Msteven1

question

did you shine lights on your unassisted cycle rock vat, needed to know. we are assessing plant loading ratios and degree of light helps, iirc you had only ambient room light. If I had to pick two threads / posts that influenced reefing the most in the last two years it’d be your posts on page 97 and Jon M’s seneye testing to proofs


how much light did your rocks get


the fact that a set of rocks given only water, and sixty days, produced the cycle like paying for bottle bac to do it quickly is a big deal. Nothing stalled, starved or went dormant it went upwardly active when water was added apparently. Fed by nature


same ends, different cost approach. It’s a big deal and will be part of the spinal cord that prevents the entire hobby from descending into pure retail purchase training for every bacterial whim. They’re on the verge of creating total dependency by never writing about what you found, free and consistent unassisted cycling.

Sorry for late reply Brandon. I did not turn on my AI Primes during that time period. I was following the BRS hybrid method. The only light was from ambient, which came from a few can lights. This tank is in a basement without windows. Hope that helps..

 

[brandon429]

it may mean algae did some or all of the ammonia bind, that's the going test currently is ratios of bacteria vs algae


one counter I'd made was that we'd need to at least see the algae proliferate, after all ATS users must harvest full clumps to keep the export chain in motion. however when reef lighting applies, some algae will most likely develop and vector in at the same time so that ratio still needs to be assessed these are my takeaways from discussions with Taricha who analyses bacteria/plant ratios.

either way your tanks were ready, and its repeatable for anyone who wants to map it out just the same, that's the standout finding part. Finally posted in a reef tank as plainly as we see for paid cycling, that was a nice contrast to have here.

 

[Msteven1]

it may mean algae did some or all of the ammonia bind, that's the going test currently is ratios of bacteria vs algae


one counter I'd made was that we'd need to at least see the algae proliferate, after all ATS users must harvest full clumps to keep the export chain in motion. however when reef lighting applies, some algae will most likely develop and vector in at the same time so that ratio still needs to be assessed these are my takeaways from discussions with Taricha who analyses bacteria/plant ratios.

either way your tanks were ready, and its repeatable for anyone who wants to map it out just the same, that's the standout finding part. Finally posted in a reef tank as plainly as we see for paid cycling, that was a nice contrast to have here.

For what it’s worth, when I turned on my lights and added 2 clowns, I did notice areas on my rock that looked like “fuzz”. In a matter of a couple weeks I had what I thought was a huge case of dino. Brown, stringy with air bubbles.
Per suggestions from this site I bought a microscope. Turns out it is Chrysophites. I’m still battling today. My NO3 and PO4 are running zero, so I’m dosing to try to keep them up. Livestock, including a handful of LpS, Sps doing fine.

July 18, 2021

youtube.com

Dino 2

youtube.com

 

[brandon429]

@Msteven1

Hey can you verify some things about your setup...we've been analyzing your build in hundreds of cycle study threads and I've forgotten the details we need to verify some aspects of your rock bring up/cycle

1. What kind of rocks? Just plain 'Dry rocks' like ordered from BRS?
2. I assume nothing else added to the tank (an old filter, sand, etc)
3.
4. How long did it take to get back to zero.
5. How big was the tank/how many pounds of rock?


we did learn that lighting was added to the setup

as far as I recall you dosed no bottle bac and no direct feed such as fish food, an old sponge (organics and slicks as feed) or liquid ammonia

from what I recall all your feed and bacteria came naturally into the system. I'm under the impression you documented a fully unassisted cycle from 1983.