Started dosing vibrant weekly five weeks ago. Haven’t really seen a visible difference with the algae yet, but nitrates and phosphates have gone up so I’m assuming the dosing is having an effect.1. Currently yes, I dose Vibrant once a week to combat hair algae and Valonia.
I also add Microbacter7 in the hopes of mitigating the Cyano issues that some seem to get from using Vibrant.
2. It is too early to see any changes yet, but the evidence is overwelming so I count on seeing improvements in the coming weeks!
Bacteria: What are your thoughts on adding "bacteria" to your reef tank?
- QUESTION OF THE DAY
- Thread starter revhtree
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
I introduced corals with their holobionts. A healthy coral holobiont contains all micro-organisms needed for that coral. Can I introduce bacteria or and archaea needed in the coral holobiont without the coral?
I introduced healthy fish and other animals, populated with a huge diversity of bacteria and archaea. They contain and will cultivate all bacteria needed. Can I introduce all bacteria needed for the remineralization of the animal's food without the animal? Essential for the survival of the animal!
I introduced water cleaning sponges with their holobionts, containing a huge diversity of bacteria and micro-organisms. Can I introduce bacteria essential in the holobiont and for the survival of the sponge without the sponge?
I introduced a microbial community, a biofilm, a small piece of real live rock, containing a huge diversity of bacteria, archaea, heterotrophs, autotrophs, photoautotrophs, sulfur bacteria, cyano, fungus, etc, each playing its role in keeping the community going and healthy, renewing the community. I think all bacteria present are essential for their microbial community. Such cultures have developed in certain circumstances and the community will be reordered and must adjust to the situation present. It needs time! Weeks, months! The communities will adjust to the situation constantly!
Can somebody tell me what kind of bacteria I may add which will not yet be present? And why they may be missing or do not grow? And why will the bacteria suddenly grow if I would be able to add them from a bottle or active culture?
The parable of the bacteria in a bottle.
If the conditions change the microbial communities will change. I think, managing bacterial communities and diversity is mainly done by managing the conditions, not by supplementing bacteria that do or will not grow. Bacterial growth and dead is exponential, the conditions are those present on the location where it all happens, which may be completely different from the conditions in the water column.
I introduced healthy fish and other animals, populated with a huge diversity of bacteria and archaea. They contain and will cultivate all bacteria needed. Can I introduce all bacteria needed for the remineralization of the animal's food without the animal? Essential for the survival of the animal!
I introduced water cleaning sponges with their holobionts, containing a huge diversity of bacteria and micro-organisms. Can I introduce bacteria essential in the holobiont and for the survival of the sponge without the sponge?
I introduced a microbial community, a biofilm, a small piece of real live rock, containing a huge diversity of bacteria, archaea, heterotrophs, autotrophs, photoautotrophs, sulfur bacteria, cyano, fungus, etc, each playing its role in keeping the community going and healthy, renewing the community. I think all bacteria present are essential for their microbial community. Such cultures have developed in certain circumstances and the community will be reordered and must adjust to the situation present. It needs time! Weeks, months! The communities will adjust to the situation constantly!
Can somebody tell me what kind of bacteria I may add which will not yet be present? And why they may be missing or do not grow? And why will the bacteria suddenly grow if I would be able to add them from a bottle or active culture?
The parable of the bacteria in a bottle.
If the conditions change the microbial communities will change. I think, managing bacterial communities and diversity is mainly done by managing the conditions, not by supplementing bacteria that do or will not grow. Bacterial growth and dead is exponential, the conditions are those present on the location where it all happens, which may be completely different from the conditions in the water column.
Justin Aretz
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2019
- Messages
- 114
- Reaction score
- 123
My two cents, though anecdotal: it’s hard to notice a difference when you are adding X to system A and have no control to reference. With this being said, there is no question that beneficial bacteria plays one of the most important roles in a reef tank. I am a firm believer in bacterial “maintenance” from the day you get wet.
There seems to be a window between the 3 month mark and the 1.5 year mark where the results may be less noticeable than at times outside of this window. I personally use Prodibio Biodigest Pro and know that my new BB tank, started from dry rock, would be suffering an immense amount of the uglies had I not had a bacterial maintenance plan in place. I did not cure my dry rock at all, and am seeing the minor amount of dinoflagellates that popped up dwindle down to nothing as I continue to add multiple strains of bacteria to combat this.
As a side note, I see very little evidence of success with bacteria’s that come out of a plastic bottle, for what this is worth.
There seems to be a window between the 3 month mark and the 1.5 year mark where the results may be less noticeable than at times outside of this window. I personally use Prodibio Biodigest Pro and know that my new BB tank, started from dry rock, would be suffering an immense amount of the uglies had I not had a bacterial maintenance plan in place. I did not cure my dry rock at all, and am seeing the minor amount of dinoflagellates that popped up dwindle down to nothing as I continue to add multiple strains of bacteria to combat this.
As a side note, I see very little evidence of success with bacteria’s that come out of a plastic bottle, for what this is worth.
Nitcrawler
Active Member
i need my reefers opinion.
i read article where someone did a experiment of 3 different rock type on 3 dif. tank..
i definitely believe that real rock is better then reef-ready rock.
when i did my 46g back in the day. i used cured reef rocks. i had no problem at all, i was at the stage where i didnt even have to do a water change and the tank was amazing.
present day..
125g with 75g sump ext. with a extra stage for what eva i want to put there.
issue: long hair algae problem, red diatom etc.
back to the rocks, i started my tank using reef ready rocks with some dry dry rock.
heres why i think i have a lack of bacteria.
almost the tank got covered purple do to the fact that everything is covered in purple the bacteria doesn't have a place to live. compare to real-rock where they can live in cracks and stuff. i hope you understand what i'm trying to say.
i just did Dr.Tim refresh & waste-away, and i haven't seen any improvement as of yet.
hope it turns the tank around.
no matter how much bacteria i add i see no improvement in the corals.
heres another reason why i think i a lack of bacteria. i had a dying coral in my tank that i transfered over to my son's 16g tank. my son is new at this and hes only 15, in his tank we put real rock & he he barely does a W.C..
i put that coral in there and with in days it came back to life.
i will show pics.
i had sticks as well they passed away, only lasted a few months.
the only thing thats kind of doing well is softys.
the real question is,
should i take out the reef ready rock and add dry rock to make up for the lack of bacteria?
My son’s tank , he does nothing to it, and it’s doing better then mine.
i read article where someone did a experiment of 3 different rock type on 3 dif. tank..
i definitely believe that real rock is better then reef-ready rock.
when i did my 46g back in the day. i used cured reef rocks. i had no problem at all, i was at the stage where i didnt even have to do a water change and the tank was amazing.
present day..
125g with 75g sump ext. with a extra stage for what eva i want to put there.
issue: long hair algae problem, red diatom etc.
back to the rocks, i started my tank using reef ready rocks with some dry dry rock.
heres why i think i have a lack of bacteria.
almost the tank got covered purple do to the fact that everything is covered in purple the bacteria doesn't have a place to live. compare to real-rock where they can live in cracks and stuff. i hope you understand what i'm trying to say.
i just did Dr.Tim refresh & waste-away, and i haven't seen any improvement as of yet.
hope it turns the tank around.
no matter how much bacteria i add i see no improvement in the corals.
heres another reason why i think i a lack of bacteria. i had a dying coral in my tank that i transfered over to my son's 16g tank. my son is new at this and hes only 15, in his tank we put real rock & he he barely does a W.C..
i put that coral in there and with in days it came back to life.
i will show pics.
i had sticks as well they passed away, only lasted a few months.
the only thing thats kind of doing well is softys.
the real question is,
should i take out the reef ready rock and add dry rock to make up for the lack of bacteria?
My son’s tank , he does nothing to it, and it’s doing better then mine.
Last edited:
I must say WHY? Why you have to dose extra bacteria?
I mean:
- to clean? We have our CUC
- as food? I think phito and zoo are better
I honestly think that a well balaced tank don’t really need extra bacteria, if does there’s something I can’t understand....
In my tank there is just an ATS, no skimmer, no mechanical, but i don’t feel the necessity to add extra bacteria...
IMHO
this is my tank...(sorry it’s in italian)
ATS acquario marino (algae scrubber) Update #1
I mean:
- to clean? We have our CUC
- as food? I think phito and zoo are better
I honestly think that a well balaced tank don’t really need extra bacteria, if does there’s something I can’t understand....
In my tank there is just an ATS, no skimmer, no mechanical, but i don’t feel the necessity to add extra bacteria...
IMHO
this is my tank...(sorry it’s in italian)
ATS acquario marino (algae scrubber) Update #1
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I don't get it either and think it's silly. Bacteria multiplies faster than a Geek who had a degree in calculus. This hobby is pretty easy but we seem to try our hardest to make it complicated.
10 minutes after you set up your tank bacteria will cover everything, even if you "accidentally" drop a picture of your Mother N Law in your tank. It will take a few months for the correct bacteria to out compete the lazy, good for nothing bacteria but I feel adding different bacteria in a bottle is just a silly waste of time and money.
Sorry people who sell bacteria in a bottle. Just my opinion of course.
10 minutes after you set up your tank bacteria will cover everything, even if you "accidentally" drop a picture of your Mother N Law in your tank. It will take a few months for the correct bacteria to out compete the lazy, good for nothing bacteria but I feel adding different bacteria in a bottle is just a silly waste of time and money.
Sorry people who sell bacteria in a bottle. Just my opinion of course.
My tank was analysed for this last year. It's got bacteria in it and none from a bottle and like so many people say, "I had Great Success"
Ruben Sacramento
Community Member
- Joined
- May 16, 2018
- Messages
- 66
- Reaction score
- 129
Actually you should have more bacteria than any other guy running a skimmer for that matter.
Problem with bacteria is properly maintaining population and diversity. People usually either over skim or run nutrient levels so low that any swing causes "bad bacteria" to bloom and good bacteria to struggle to rebalance.
There is a good study by Aquabiomics on bacterial populations and diversity on several tanks and it turns out that all bacteria populations and strains diverge in size and number from tank to tank. Live rock, miracle mud, and some bacteria in a bottle products (in order of importance) actually help to maintain or restore bacterial diversity.
It was also observed that in tanks with good diversity there mere little to no bacteria that cause coral infection or disease that result in RTN or STN.
H3rm1tCr@b
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2018
- Messages
- 650
- Reaction score
- 1,103
Technically when I added the live rock from Tampa Bay I added bacteria. One of the biggest reasons I got it was for the microscopic creatures that you only get from the ocean. Along with the other creatures inside, the biodiversity exploded. I am positive the bacteria is feeding all the clams, oysters, and barnacles.
Sorry Paul, but bacteria dont have lungs. Therefore dont need air. Therefore will survive in a bottle or air tight bag. Them just da facts!
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
If you look at them real close, you will see that they have big noses.
(fish also don't have lungs, but seem to need air. )
Air, No Air, or Minimal Air
Bacteria can be placed into three groups depending on whether or not they need oxygen or air to grow. The first group must have oxygen to grow. The second group can grow with or without oxygen, and the third group cannot grow if oxygen is present.Bacteria like Bacillus cereus can only grow if oxygen or air is present.
Last edited:
What levels are you keeping your PO4 and NO3 at?
Everything you said is true. Except you left out when bacteria go dormant........like in a bottle.If you look at them real close, you will see that they have big noses.
(fish also don't have lungs, but seem to need air. )
Air, No Air, or Minimal Air
Bacteria can be placed into three groups depending on whether or not they need oxygen or air to grow. The first group must have oxygen to grow. The second group can grow with or without oxygen, and the third group cannot grow if oxygen is present.
Bacteria like Bacillus cereus can only grow if oxygen or air is present.
In all friendly fun we proved that reef tank water is teeming with filter bacteria and in that video, it said it had none. All it means is that reef tank water has lots of useful bacteria for cycling, just like bottled bac.
so how did we prove it?
www.reef2reef.com
take a ten thousand dollar huge reef tank. Connect it with one input pipe, one output pipe, as a closed loop circulation to another twin tank that is 100% dry sand. Totally dry rocks.
add no bottled bac
add no extra feed
swirl as a closed loop for twenty days.
and then the new reef is disconnected on day twenty (when a cycle chart says free stuff kicks in) and it will pass its own oxidation test, and then nineteen known laws of reef tank microbiology get booted right out the window. New bacterial mass added itself into place. No extra feed provided. It means bacteria have been feeding for eons and we just barely recognized it in reef forums and have been grossly overpaying for free stuff.
if someone from a reef in Fiji would just bottle up shots of reef water and sell it to us as a zip booster, I’d buy it. That would be slick and better than a bottled monoculture (Lasse’s term am borrowing it)
so how did we prove it?
Connecting Established Reef To New Tank
EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...
www.reef2reef.com
take a ten thousand dollar huge reef tank. Connect it with one input pipe, one output pipe, as a closed loop circulation to another twin tank that is 100% dry sand. Totally dry rocks.
add no bottled bac
add no extra feed
swirl as a closed loop for twenty days.
and then the new reef is disconnected on day twenty (when a cycle chart says free stuff kicks in) and it will pass its own oxidation test, and then nineteen known laws of reef tank microbiology get booted right out the window. New bacterial mass added itself into place. No extra feed provided. It means bacteria have been feeding for eons and we just barely recognized it in reef forums and have been grossly overpaying for free stuff.
if someone from a reef in Fiji would just bottle up shots of reef water and sell it to us as a zip booster, I’d buy it. That would be slick and better than a bottled monoculture (Lasse’s term am borrowing it)
Last edited:
reefinginBD
Active Member
I started my first fish on reef tank with dr.Tim’s one and only. I wanted to use either atm colony or microbacter 7 or turbo start 900 but they were not available at that time,
Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
Makes sense to me supplement tanks with beneficial bacteria... IME dosing bacteria and yeast when brewing beer changes the composition of organisms fermenting the beverage for sure. It is done to make sure unwanted yeasts and bacteria's are outcompeted or to promote specific bacteria or yeast growth. Germans have been "krausening", i.e., adding extra yeast, to brews for hundreds of years to make sure there is lively activity of micro-critters they want and it works.
I don't see why the same principle wouldn't be true for reef tanks... A reef tank is just a food source for micro-critters just like unfermented beer is a food source for micro-critters..
I would think increasing the population of beneficial bacteria will be, well, beneficial. Probably helps restore populations of certain bacteria's that get out of whack or out competed by other micro-critters/algae/etc., especially if there is a good food source available. That just makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that if you stop dosing, the equilibrium may return to what is was before or maybe has been changed permanently, who knows. And sometimes i am sure micro critter populations remain unchanged even with dosing if the new bacteria doesn't take hold. That's probably why results vary...
In my case, i did beat a bad case of dinos with a combination of UV, then bacteria dosing, phyto dosing, and copepods... I keep dosing since then and it's little expense. I feed so ridiculously heavy that feel without good micro-critters and coral growth--i have a terribly ugly, algae ridden, tank with all the light pounding down in it...
I don't see why the same principle wouldn't be true for reef tanks... A reef tank is just a food source for micro-critters just like unfermented beer is a food source for micro-critters..
I would think increasing the population of beneficial bacteria will be, well, beneficial. Probably helps restore populations of certain bacteria's that get out of whack or out competed by other micro-critters/algae/etc., especially if there is a good food source available. That just makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that if you stop dosing, the equilibrium may return to what is was before or maybe has been changed permanently, who knows. And sometimes i am sure micro critter populations remain unchanged even with dosing if the new bacteria doesn't take hold. That's probably why results vary...
In my case, i did beat a bad case of dinos with a combination of UV, then bacteria dosing, phyto dosing, and copepods... I keep dosing since then and it's little expense. I feed so ridiculously heavy that feel without good micro-critters and coral growth--i have a terribly ugly, algae ridden, tank with all the light pounding down in it...
I add Dr. Tim's Eco-Balance every couple of days. I was having a weird issue where even small amounts of nitrate seems to cause bleaching on individual polyps. After failing to find a cause I thought it might be pathogenic and decided to use Eco Balance for it's included protection against vibrio. It's been a couple of months, only 1 coral still exhibits the issue at trace amounts of nitrate (0.5 ppm). I will know if it helped once I try to raise nitrate back to 1.5 - 5.0 ppm.
Dennis
Dennis
When we choose to dose cycling bac to an already cycled tank, let’s say one with a thread title “ammonia rising” as an alert (and the test was api) the bac added have no where to attach since being post cycle means all spaces full. Adding aerobes that compete for oxygen and swirl around until exported by skimming or becoming flocculated with other solids in the system literally accomplishes nothing for a reef but it helped make vette payments for bottle bac sellers.
The money leaves a buyers pocket and goes into the retail chain, this is the insurance market actively alive in our hobby but disguised as a false ammonia read.
so we think we are doing good by adding supporting doses well after cycling, cease doing that and save your money, you’re getting a .25 or a .5 reading no matter what, for the life of your tank, so just enjoy it.
as soon as the hobby understands surface area mechanics that are inherent for every reef, not just some, thats the day wasteful expenditures drop. Until then, it’s all about the bac and I’m in need, juice me.
The money leaves a buyers pocket and goes into the retail chain, this is the insurance market actively alive in our hobby but disguised as a false ammonia read.
so we think we are doing good by adding supporting doses well after cycling, cease doing that and save your money, you’re getting a .25 or a .5 reading no matter what, for the life of your tank, so just enjoy it.
as soon as the hobby understands surface area mechanics that are inherent for every reef, not just some, thats the day wasteful expenditures drop. Until then, it’s all about the bac and I’m in need, juice me.
Last edited:
Similar threads
