Bacto Balance, or Elimi-NP?

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Dave-T

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I have a 240 gallon mixed reef (350 gallon total system), coming up on one year old. I'm trying to lower my N&P and have decided to try carbon dosing. My nitrates are getting up to about 17, and my phosphates to .3, before I knock them back down with a 25% water change every two weeks or so. I'd like to get away from having to do these water changes, and want more stability in my nutrients. My target nutrient levels are 10 Nitrates and 0.1 Phosphates. After doing some research, I came across this, and decided to give NP Bacto Balance a try. But then I came across this on BRS, which says that Bacto Balance is intended for systems with nitrates at 1-2 and phosphates at 0.03-0.1. I'm much higher than that, and that is much lower than I ever want to get, at least for the nitrates.

But the product description says that ELimi-NP is for systems with an N to P ratio of 10:1 or lower. Mine is about 50:1, and my target ratio is 100:1. This 10:1 thing is new to me, do people actually target that?

So should I be using Elimi-NP instead? Would I ever want to use Bacto Balance, given that my target nutrients are well above what bacto balance is designed for?
 

KStatefan

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I have a 240 gallon mixed reef (350 gallon total system), coming up on one year old. I'm trying to lower my N&P and have decided to try carbon dosing. My nitrates are getting up to about 17, and my phosphates to .3, before I knock them back down with a 25% water change every two weeks or so. I'd like to get away from having to do these water changes, and want more stability in my nutrients. My target nutrient levels are 10 Nitrates and 0.1 Phosphates. After doing some research, I came across this, and decided to give NP Bacto Balance a try. But then I came across this on BRS, which says that Bacto Balance is intended for systems with nitrates at 1-2 and phosphates at 0.03-0.1. I'm much higher than that, and that is much lower than I ever want to get, at least for the nitrates.

But the product description says that ELimi-NP is for systems with an N to P ratio of 10:1 or lower. Mine is about 50:1, and my target ratio is 100:1. This 10:1 thing is new to me, do people actually target that?

So should I be using Elimi-NP instead? Would I ever want to use Bacto Balance, given that my target nutrients are well above what bacto balance is designed for?


This was Lou's answer to that question when I asked him last year.

"Don’t worry too much about that 10:1 ratio. It is not as important as the PO4 concentration. So as long as your PO4 is above 0.1ppm, then stick with the ELIMI-NP. When the PO4 drops to below 0.1ppm then switch over to the NP-BACT Balance."
 
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Dave-T

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I just got some Elimi-NP. A couple things... The bottle is really small, it will only last me a month or two depending on how much I dose. Why don't they sell it in larger quantities? The other thing is that it says on the bottle "Store the bottle tightly sealed!". This makes me think that it wouldn't work in a dosing container, which is what I wanted to do. Probably also why they don't sell it in larger containers.

Does anyone have any advice for what I should do if I want to dose it with an auto doser? Maybe I should just use vodka...
 
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Dave-T

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Anyone? I'd like to know if it's safe to auto-dose Elimi-NP, and also what measurement they're using when they recommend 10:1 nitrate to phosphate. I've always heard it should be 100:1, the 10:1 thing must be using some other units, correct?
 

Pod_01

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Yup I used doser, no issue. If concerned just put less in the container.
The ratio is correct and TM recommend 10:1. Since it is recommendation you can pick different ratio. I don’t recommend you chase numbers, things usually went sideways for me when I tried.
The second post tells you that TM considers PO4 to be critical and should be watched when carbon dosing.

Good luck,
 

Koty

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Elimi NP is costly, but IME it works simply because corals look good (not sure if it's the most efficient carbon dosing for the $. I struggled to get my PO4 toward 0.1 ppm but discovered that my skimmer desperately needed cleaning. To reduce NO3/PO4, efficient carbon dosing should be coupled with extensive skimming. It gets rid of both the organics before they decompose and the bacteria in the water column that feed on the carbon.
 
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Dave-T

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So I've been dosing Elimi-NP for about a week. I think it's working - my skimmate accumulation has increased, and my Nitrates have dropped. But my Phosphates have not dropped. Does this make sense? If I'm understanding the (very informative) video from @Lou Ekus above, it should be the opposite - Phosphates should be dropping first and the nitrates will drop once coral growth increases.
 

Pod_01

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One reason is that Phosphate is bound to surfaces so as it is used up it leaches right back out. NO3 is in the water so once removed it is gone.
General consensus is that NO3 comes down faster vs PO4. But I could be wrong.
 

Lou Ekus

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So I've been dosing Elimi-NP for about a week. I think it's working - my skimmate accumulation has increased, and my Nitrates have dropped. But my Phosphates have not dropped. Does this make sense? If I'm understanding the (very informative) video from @Lou Ekus above, it should be the opposite - Phosphates should be dropping first and the nitrates will drop once coral growth increases.
Try to give it a little longer. A week is not a lot of time and I would bet you will see the PO4 start to decrease as well very soon.
 
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Dave-T

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Try to give it a little longer. A week is not a lot of time and I would bet you will see the PO4 start to decrease as well very soon.
Thanks. So you say that carbon dosing should have a greater effect on phosphates, at least initially, but many people say the opposite, such as mentioned several times in this thread:


Randy Holmes Farley says "Nitrate is always reduced to a greater extent than phosphate simply because bacteria need a lot more nitrogen than phosphorus"

So apparently there is some debate on this? Would you mind adding some clarity here?
 
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Lou Ekus

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Thanks. So you say that carbon dosing should have a greater effect on phosphates, at least initially, but many people say the opposite, such as mentioned several times in this thread:


Randy Holmes Farley says "Nitrate is always reduced to a greater extent than phosphate simply because bacteria need a lot more nitrogen than phosphorus"

So apparently there is some debate on this? Would you mind adding some clarity here?
Not really "debate" ... There is a difference when we are talking about the "overall" effect of carbon dosing on nutrient levels, and the mechanics of carbon dosing on coral nutrition. I asked @Hans-Werner about this. His answer to me made perfect sense and clears up this question beautifully:

Phosphate is the nutrient of central importance TO CORALS. It is really determining growth and directing processes, i. e. calcification, polyp extension, color etc.. Nitrate is of secondary importance TO CORALS. It is because corals prefer the ammonium excreted by fish and only one of different available nitrogen compounds which may be used at the same time or alternatively.

However, this is not a general statement about organic carbon dosing. Bacteria and other organisms are making the situation much more complicated and a general statement which one is used first is difficult.


I think this says a lot! I hope it answers your question as well.
 

Koty

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A bit like iron metabolism: We need it for key processes such as oxygen usage but it is also very toxic. So iron is always bound to some carrier protein. The inorganic phosphate in the water column, that may have some negative effects such as inhibit calcification and cause algea issues, is beneficial once its incorpirated to the "right" bacteria or other coral-supporting organisms.
 

Lou Ekus

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A bit like iron metabolism: We need it for key processes such as oxygen usage but it is also very toxic. So iron is always bound to some carrier protein. The inorganic phosphate in the water column, that may have some negative effects such as inhibit calcification and cause algea issues, is beneficial once its incorpirated to the "right" bacteria or other coral-supporting organisms.
While I agree with some of what you are saying @Koty , I don't think the two things equate. But I do get what you are saying.
 
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Dave-T

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Not really "debate" ... There is a difference when we are talking about the "overall" effect of carbon dosing on nutrient levels, and the mechanics of carbon dosing on coral nutrition. I asked @Hans-Werner about this. His answer to me made perfect sense and clears up this question beautifully:

Phosphate is the nutrient of central importance TO CORALS. It is really determining growth and directing processes, i. e. calcification, polyp extension, color etc.. Nitrate is of secondary importance TO CORALS. It is because corals prefer the ammonium excreted by fish and only one of different available nitrogen compounds which may be used at the same time or alternatively.

However, this is not a general statement about organic carbon dosing. Bacteria and other organisms are making the situation much more complicated and a general statement which one is used first is difficult.


I think this says a lot! I hope it answers your question as well.
Thanks, but I don't think that answers my question at all, sadly. I'm asking about the effects of carbon dosing on N&P concentrations in the aquarium. In your MACNA lecture:


at about minute 35, you said that carbon dosing will cause bacteria to primarily reduce phosphates, but I'm seeing the opposite. I've been using elimi-np for about 3 weeks now, and my nitrates are dropping nicely, but phosphates have, if anything, increased. That's my confusion. @Randy Holmes-Farley says that carbon dosing will primarily reduce nitrates, which is indeed what I'm seeing.
 

Koty

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Carbon dosing always will reduce more nitrates then phosphates. If you have a lot of input (many well fed fish) you will multiple export strategies. I use 2-3 ml ElimiNP/400l, KZ Spongepower, Reef-actif, cheato, carbon polimer reactor, GFO reactor, skemmer, filter wool, and my phosphate is around 0.2- 0,1 at best. But, most of my corals look great. Also, it may be that having a higher (more then what I have) coral load helps reduce phosphates.
 

Lou Ekus

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Thanks, but I don't think that answers my question at all, sadly. I'm asking about the effects of carbon dosing on N&P concentrations in the aquarium. In your MACNA lecture:


at about minute 35, you said that carbon dosing will cause bacteria to primarily reduce phosphates, but I'm seeing the opposite. I've been using elimi-np for about 3 weeks now, and my nitrates are dropping nicely, but phosphates have, if anything, increased. That's my confusion. @Randy Holmes-Farley says that carbon dosing will primarily reduce nitrates, which is indeed what I'm seeing.

Again, in the video, I am talking about the effect of carbon dosing on corals and the bacteria that the corals are consuming, and resulting effects of coral growth. When you are measuring the NO3 and PO4 in your water, you are monitoring those compounds in your system and seeing the results of carbon dosing on your system. These are two very different things.
I still think that if you wait a little longer, you will start to see some reduction of the
PO4 in your system. It may not keep pace with the reduction of NO3, but the PO4 will eventually go down some!
 

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Again, in the video, I am talking about the effect of carbon dosing on corals and the bacteria that the corals are consuming, and resulting effects of coral growth. When you are measuring the NO3 and PO4 in your water, you are monitoring those compounds in your system and seeing the results of carbon dosing on your system. These are two very different things.
I still think that if you wait a little longer, you will start to see some reduction of the
PO4 in your system. It may not keep pace with the reduction of NO3, but the PO4 will eventually go down some!
My biopellets froze up on me while on vacation the last week of ‘23. I figured this was a good opportunity to try Elimi NP. Boy was I wrong. Both NO3 and PO4 have skyrocketed since starting 2 weeks ago. NO3 started at 10, and is currently at 23 as shown below. PO4 is probably much higher than the .6 shown below, since my Hanna checker only reads up to .6. I am dosing the max (4ml) on my 200g tank and skimming wet. How long should I wait to see results?
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Lou Ekus

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My biopellets froze up on me while on vacation the last week of ‘23. I figured this was a good opportunity to try Elimi NP. Boy was I wrong. Both NO3 and PO4 have skyrocketed since starting 2 weeks ago. NO3 started at 10, and is currently at 23 as shown below. PO4 is probably much higher than the .6 shown below, since my Hanna checker only reads up to .6. I am dosing the max (4ml) on my 200g tank and skimming wet. How long should I wait to see results?
1706141989201.jpeg

1706142093320.jpeg
This is very unusual to see. The NP BACTO Pellets usually are a more gentle, slow acting carbon dose than the ELIMI NP. Your results are not what I would expect to see. And I certainly would have expected to see different results by the 2 week point. I'm sorry you are having that issue. These things are always very "system related" meaning that it is very difficult, from my vantage point here, to know why this is happening. My best suggestion for you is this... If the NP BACTO Pellets were working so well for you, I would say to go back to them. Once they are dialed in, they are actually an easier approach than the ELIMI NP. But with that said, if that is not satisfactory for you, then give me a call in the office during East Coast business hours, and I can try to help you figure out, in more detail, wht the ELIMI NP is not working for you.
 

ReefKeeperElite

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This is very unusual to see. The NP BACTO Pellets usually are a more gentle, slow acting carbon dose than the ELIMI NP. Your results are not what I would expect to see. And I certainly would have expected to see different results by the 2 week point. I'm sorry you are having that issue. These things are always very "system related" meaning that it is very difficult, from my vantage point here, to know why this is happening. My best suggestion for you is this... If the NP BACTO Pellets were working so well for you, I would say to go back to them. Once they are dialed in, they are actually an easier approach than the ELIMI NP. But with that said, if that is not satisfactory for you, then give me a call in the office during East Coast business hours, and I can try to help you figure out, in more detail, wht the ELIMI NP is not working for you.
Thank you so much for replying. Please note that the pellets I was using were not the TM bacto pellets, but the stock BRS pellets. Could it be that those pellets fed other bacteria strains than Elimi NP, and once they were removed that strain was no longer being fed? So essentially my system is shifting to differently favored bacteria strain?
 

Lou Ekus

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Thank you so much for replying. Please note that the pellets I was using were not the TM bacto pellets, but the stock BRS pellets. Could it be that those pellets fed other bacteria strains than Elimi NP, and once they were removed that strain was no longer being fed? So essentially my system is shifting to differently favored bacteria strain?
Ah, the different pellet thing makes some sense. I'm not sure the explanation is simple as that. But I was assuming you were using our NP BACTO Pellets. In that case, this scenario would be really weird!

I’m not sure that we can explain this totally. But my recommendation still stands the same. Except, I would add that maybe moving to NP BACTO Pellets would give you a very different result than what you had before.
 

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