BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by 4FordFamily, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    To add the the above, we told clients “this fish is from the Maldives”. Or “This fish is from the Red Sea”. This is a different claim from “we transshipped this directly from the island/location to our store”.
     
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  2. Mortie31

    Mortie31 Valuable Member R2R Supporter UK Reef Club Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes they do, obviously because they come from all over the world, but in Europe at least there rested at the wholesaler and then again at the LFS and can be observed...
     
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  3. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    My prevailing view of wholesalers and most of the distribution system I’ve experienced is that they are a necessary evil. Akin to attorneys (No offense attorneys, we love you when we need you!)
     
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  4. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    I’m saying by odds this means your fish are more likely to have parasites than if they were exposed to fewer systems of water.

    Perhaps in Europe disease is far less of an issue because of the way your distribution system performs/operates and this isn’t much of a risk. If didn’t used to be much of a risk here, either. My first ten years in the hobby I didn’t treat or quarantine anything! There were some disease prone fish I couldn’t keep but I was pretty successful until about 5 years ago, it’s worsening every year per my observation.

    Full disclosure too I do order more difficult to keep and disease prone fish than I did in my first ten years in the hobby versus the most recent 5 years. I’m still quite confident it’s far worse now, as even bread and butter hardy fish are having more difficulty. That’s why I hang out in the fish disease forum. I’m trying to help others through this tough time in the US and I have amended my ways.

    In fact, I was banned from Reef Central for being anti-quarantine and speaking out against it publicly and challenging those that said it was the only way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  5. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    THAT EXPLAINS IT :):):):):):):)

    FWIW - I'm not anti-QT at all. I just have (I think) found a way to get quality fish without having to do it myself (i.e. its done for me) - and I trust the people. If someone is going to QT/treat prophylactically - I hope we're a working for the 'best' method with the 'most' evidence.

    BTW - though its been mentioned that I shouldn't be talking about copper (why does R2R always change it to Cooper) - I essentially am using QT/copper - its just not me thats doing it - so I naturally have an interest in what works best:). I will be going to get a fish at the LFS once my new cover comes in - so I'll try to get at least their answers to some of these distributor questions
     
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  6. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    @4FordFamily @Mortie31 I will say - that Liveaquaria and saltwater fish.com after quickly looking at their site - do not mention anything about quarantining their fish - unless I missed it. Nor how long they 'keep' fish between receiving and shipping.

    This from A and M aquatics (a wholesaler): Our fish are fully acclimated for a 24-48 hour period allowing for complete recovery from the stresses of shipping. During that time they are exposed to a light antibiotic treatment to minimize any bag abrasions or ammonia burns which were a result of shipping. After full recovery we then freshwater dip the fish to reduce the number of parasites attached. Because parasites hide under scales and in gills, it is impossible to catch them all, this is why it is so important for the retail stores to further dip and treat any fish that need it. After the fish are freshwater dipped they are carefully screened by one of our senior aquarists before being introduced to our holding systems and offered for sale. Any fish not meeting our stringent requirements at that time are kept in a separate quarantine system until we feel they are acceptable for sale.

    From another (who I won't name - though they may be great): We spend more per fish on antibiotics, specialty foods, buffers, and amquil than any other wholesaler. With the largest water trailer on the Islands we do regular massive water changes which ensure the best quality of fish for our customers.
     
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  7. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Dang auto auto correct Cooper copper whatever it is!!!! I don't know why it does that but I always know what someone means. :)

    Chloroquine is a great alternative, except for the following:

    For whatever reason some fish like anthias, certain genus of Wrasse, and Blu hippos just will not tolerate it.

    There is not a suitable "in home" method for monitoring the level and there is research out there that indicates degradation by light, by biofilm etc. That's why I don't love the medication. I hate not being able to monitor the degradation etc.

    Copper used to be about as tough to use with visual test methods.

    The discovery of the Hanna checker working in SW is what peaked my interest and led to all of the testing in my paticular situation.

    The Hanna checker is pretty darn accurate for a 50 dollar device IMO. I mean I really do believe it's within the +/-.05ppm range the manufacturer states. I have tested all of the available copper products and all of them but one manufacturer test out exactly within the tolerance of the device. Except for one...

    Ask your LFS how many losses they incur, all of our local shops say it's worse than they have ever seen currently. Matter of fact our biggest store in town just bought property next door and is using the existing building solely for a QT facility because without the use of QT the losses were large enough they had to make a decision to QT or stop selling fish all together.
     
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  8. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks - I will. Im sure Cooper appreciates the clarification as well otherwise he has been busy:). I will ask them. I know they keep their fish separate and treat when necessary - before putting them on display. Also - anyone wanting to order/buy fish can do so - and they will hold them until they are 'ready' per the buyer. (within reason).
     
  9. HairyGary

    HairyGary Why do all your fish look like trout? R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award R2R Secret Santa Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Doh!! How can I "thumbs this down"? ;)
     
  10. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    assumedly - you are an attorney lol:). or a wholesaler:).. or a distribution system:)?
     
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  11. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Hahaha! I knew I’d get a rise out of somebody! We love ya buddy!
     
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  12. HairyGary

    HairyGary Why do all your fish look like trout? R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award R2R Secret Santa Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    no worries! Not easily offended. Keep up the good work!
     
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  13. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Lol I have yet to meet an attorney that is easily offended! I work with a group on contract law regularly.
     
  14. cancun

    cancun Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I have been following along, very interesting discussion. I go to two LFS in my area. We have many LFS here, but I only go to these two because I have a great relationship with the owners and employees of both LFS. I never buy online, just my preference. I am lucky to have these great LFS within a 45 min drive. They both have complained of more fish losses than in previous years. Both of them now get more fish transhipped and pick them up at the airport, than from wholesalers. It costs them more and costs me more, but the end result is healthy fish. So I am willing to pay more. One of them gets certain Wrasses directly from a collector.
     
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  15. Crashjack

    Crashjack Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    Back to original issue, has anybody thought about the chelating agent used being the problem? I believe I read somewhere that the chelating agent used can effect efficacy. This could explain as: 1) Copper Power might have changed their chelating agent, or 2) 1.75 ppm might be right on the borderline of the therapeutic level for Copper Power (due to the chelating agent used), resulting in it sometimes working and sometimes not. It would also explain why a 14% increase in concentration appears to eliminate the problem. Admittedly this is just a guess, but so are all the other reasons that have been thrown out and discussed.
     
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  16. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    SO - @4FordFamily and @HotRocks @Humblefish and anyone else interested. I got a response from the ONLY researcher that found Resistant velvet (to copper) - here is her response - and my follow-up question (and IMHO it is quite interesting):


    • Hi - I saw you did a presentation/poster back in 2001 - Copper Resistant Amyloodininosis and Possible Immunosuppression in Marine Fish — RuthEllen Klinger, Ruth Francis-Floyd and Allen Riggs, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, USA;

      Was wondering if you could summarize the findings - was copper resistance found - and do you know the mechanism. I couldnt find any other information about it. - The reason im asking - I'm on a reef aquarium forum where someone has reported copper resistant amyloodinium - and I was curious as to whether it actually existed. Yours was the only reference. Thanks

    • [​IMG]
      Ruthellen Klinger-Bowen
      to you
      1 day ago
      Hello. wow! digging up the back recesses of my mind here! If I remember correctly, it was referring to several retail aquariums we were helping during that time. Basically the copper treatments for Amyloodinium were not working (along with UV). Fish would just get sicker and die. Only chloroquin worked at 10 mg/L prolonged bath. So yes we did find copper resistance but don't know the mechanism. Copper has complex chemistry in salt water from what I remember. But I haven't worked on it since.

    • [​IMG]

      13 minutes ago
      Thanks so much for the answer - in your opinion (dated though it may be (JK) - would you think that if (fairly clearly - copper at 1.75 ppm did not work - is it likely that 2 ppm would work - or would you change to chloroquine. Thanks again:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  17. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.
     
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  18. ReefWithCare

    ReefWithCare Valuable Member

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    So CP is the magic drug again - but we can’t get CP .

    Several vets and MDs I have talked don’t want to script it anymore for the very same reason Copper has made mutant strains.

    It’s good to know you are doing 2.0 - 2.5 PPM with no ill effects.
     
  19. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Acquiring CP may not be the issue at hand. At least not for me. I treat alot of wrasses, which will not tolerate CP. Also other fish like blue hippos and anthias don't fare well in it either.

    There is also no way to monitor the concentration in the water. At least not a cheap in home method.

    I need to do additional research, but things like light, biofilm, etc. Can cause degradation. Having a suitable way to test or monitor the level without sending samples to a laboratory would change my stance here. Until we reach that milestone this is my .02.

    There are fish that will not tolerate copper as well but far fewer (especially fish common to the hobby) than the number that won't tolerate CP.
     
  20. ReefWithCare

    ReefWithCare Valuable Member

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    Yes it may be easy for you to obtain it but not for us .

    I’ve used CP in a pinch for velvet and it’s always been very effective I just can’t get it anymore for the very reasons you stated along with concerns for drug resistance. Vets at least around me just don’t want to script it.

    Either way - if 2.0 -2.5 is working it’s easy enough to switch to that. 2.50 was the original manufacturer’s recommendation anyway. I don’t do the 14 day method like you though because of lack of space so I treat for 30 days.
     
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