BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by 4FordFamily, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    FYI - here is her reply: Without doing some experiments testing the 2 ppm dose, I couldn't say. I just know that chloroquine worked back then. But let me ask my colleagues if there has been any further developments with either drug more recently. So perhaps here is some benefit to asking questions...:)
     
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  2. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Im just happy to know I'm not crazy ;) :)
     
  3. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    You could still be crazy lol:)
     
  4. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    He’s definitely still crazy. Thanks for sharing! :)
     
  5. Reefahholic

    Reefahholic Reef Junkie T.V. R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    This was because the fish had velvet and undetected Uronema in the rectum. Of course they did not know this at the time. :p:D:p
     
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  6. Reefahholic

    Reefahholic Reef Junkie T.V. R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    I haven’t read this whole thread, but for me it’s logical that there will be more resistant strains due to all the people treating fish these days. The same thing happens with some organisms and antibiotics.

    I’ve seen patients on multiple different antibiotics and it’s not even touching some of these organisms because they’re so resistant.

    It all goes back to Snorvich’s advice. Transfer the fish to a non-medicated tank for about 4 weeks observation to play it safe. If they fail that period...it’s usually within the 1st 3 weeks. Then you know.
     
  7. Reefahholic

    Reefahholic Reef Junkie T.V. R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    Blue Hippo’s die from CP. Found that out the hard way. Check out the fish during treatment of only 40mg vs a while later after I stopped the treatment and transferred him to my DT.

    During treatment:


    After treatment:
     
  8. mcpeachy

    mcpeachy Active Member

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    Are we talking about chelated copper or ionic copper with these observations? Also, side question...when handling copper is it crucial to wear gloves or am I the only fool sticking my hands in the tank?
     
  9. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    This would be chelated. 1.75ppm would be much too strong for ionic.

    I put my hands in the tank with copper in it.... not sure I should be doing it....
     
  10. mcpeachy

    mcpeachy Active Member

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    yeah...i think causes cancer....we should probably have gloves on, right?
     
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  11. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    I honestly don't know. Can it be absorbed through the skin in meaningful amounts with our limited exposure? No idea....
     
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  12. Blackened

    Blackened Member

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    Whenever we suspect / notice symptoms of Velvet or ich, we begin with a prepared FW bath, then Formalin for 45 mins, followed by copper or CP depending on species...If the fish are badly infected, they will need antibiotics to avoid succumbing to a secondary bacterial infection.
    We have rarely lost fish to ich or velvet in the last year or so and now all fish get this treatment prophylactically as part of our QT process in store.
    This also clears up flukes to a good degree before Prazi and General cure take over.
     
  13. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4556990/

    I would think the amount of copper actually - getting through your skin - unless you actually keep your hands in for a very long time would be minimal - and I wouldn't worry about it - certainly rinse carefully.

    Then. there's this: " The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 2.0 mg/l.[22]". (i.e. 2 ppm)
     
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  14. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Something I forgot - is that Copper is 'safe' in drinking water up to 2 ppm (and thats based on the fact that people drink water several times/day). Most people dont use enough copper to cause a problem - but if you do QT daily, etc - maybe its better to be safe than sorry.

    I certainly wouldn't drink cuprmine/coppersafe directly - and if you are using those chemicals and spill them - I would be a bit careful as to how they were cleaned up/washed off your skin.
     
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  15. drstardust

    drstardust Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    This is yet another good reason to err on the side of caution and use gloves when handling your QT....in addition to avoiding cross contamination.
     
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  16. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Just so its clear - the levels we usually use in QT are safe to drink - so putting your hands in the tank is probably not a huge issue. Getting the concentrated level (from the bottle) on your hands is maybe not such a good idea (it probably also says that on the label).
     
  17. drstardust

    drstardust Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Right. I may not have been clear. But erring on the side of caution was my point. Not specifically for copper, but to avoid god knows what else can be in your QT. My .02, anyone can do as they wish. I will always lean toward an abundance of caution :)
     
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  18. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

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    I’ve mentioned before on here through out the threads I’ve been going 2.5 without issue, with various copper “sensitive “ species.

    A notable lfs near me has even gone higher, with no ill effect, this all measured with Hannah checker
     
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  19. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    If you look at the specs for cupramine - There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L).
     
  20. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    I don’t believe .2 is even close to therapeutic. I’ve personally had fish still still showing signs of parasites in .35-.4 (I was misreading the test results on the color chart) once I raised the level to .5, the symptoms resolved completely and did not return for the remainder or post-treatment.

    Not lab tested of course, purely anecdotal.
     
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