BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

MnFish1

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SO - @4FordFamily and @HotRocks @Humblefish and anyone else interested. I got a response from the ONLY researcher that found Resistant velvet (to copper) - here is her response - and my follow-up question (and IMHO it is quite interesting):


  • Hi - I saw you did a presentation/poster back in 2001 - Copper Resistant Amyloodininosis and Possible Immunosuppression in Marine Fish — RuthEllen Klinger, Ruth Francis-Floyd and Allen Riggs, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, USA;

    Was wondering if you could summarize the findings - was copper resistance found - and do you know the mechanism. I couldnt find any other information about it. - The reason im asking - I'm on a reef aquarium forum where someone has reported copper resistant amyloodinium - and I was curious as to whether it actually existed. Yours was the only reference. Thanks


  • Ruthellen Klinger-Bowen
    to you
    1 day ago
    Hello. wow! digging up the back recesses of my mind here! If I remember correctly, it was referring to several retail aquariums we were helping during that time. Basically the copper treatments for Amyloodinium were not working (along with UV). Fish would just get sicker and die. Only chloroquin worked at 10 mg/L prolonged bath. So yes we did find copper resistance but don't know the mechanism. Copper has complex chemistry in salt water from what I remember. But I haven't worked on it since.



  • 13 minutes ago
    Thanks so much for the answer - in your opinion (dated though it may be (JK) - would you think that if (fairly clearly - copper at 1.75 ppm did not work - is it likely that 2 ppm would work - or would you change to chloroquine. Thanks again:)
FYI - here is her reply: Without doing some experiments testing the 2 ppm dose, I couldn't say. I just know that chloroquine worked back then. But let me ask my colleagues if there has been any further developments with either drug more recently. So perhaps here is some benefit to asking questions...:)
 
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HotRocks

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FYI - here is her reply: Without doing some experiments testing the 2 ppm dose, I couldn't say. I just know that chloroquine worked back then. But let me ask my colleagues if there has been any further developments with either drug more recently. So perhaps here is some benefit to asking questions...:)
Im just happy to know I'm not crazy ;) :)
 
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SO - @4FordFamily and @HotRocks @Humblefish and anyone else interested. I got a response from the ONLY researcher that found Resistant velvet (to copper) - here is her response - and my follow-up question (and IMHO it is quite interesting):


  • Hi - I saw you did a presentation/poster back in 2001 - Copper Resistant Amyloodininosis and Possible Immunosuppression in Marine Fish — RuthEllen Klinger, Ruth Francis-Floyd and Allen Riggs, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, USA;

    Was wondering if you could summarize the findings - was copper resistance found - and do you know the mechanism. I couldnt find any other information about it. - The reason im asking - I'm on a reef aquarium forum where someone has reported copper resistant amyloodinium - and I was curious as to whether it actually existed. Yours was the only reference. Thanks


  • Ruthellen Klinger-Bowen
    to you
    1 day ago
    Hello. wow! digging up the back recesses of my mind here! If I remember correctly, it was referring to several retail aquariums we were helping during that time. Basically the copper treatments for Amyloodinium were not working (along with UV). Fish would just get sicker and die. Only chloroquin worked at 10 mg/L prolonged bath. So yes we did find copper resistance but don't know the mechanism. Copper has complex chemistry in salt water from what I remember. But I haven't worked on it since.



  • 13 minutes ago
    Thanks so much for the answer - in your opinion (dated though it may be (JK) - would you think that if (fairly clearly - copper at 1.75 ppm did not work - is it likely that 2 ppm would work - or would you change to chloroquine. Thanks again:)
This was because the fish had velvet and undetected Uronema in the rectum. Of course they did not know this at the time. :p:D:p
 

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I haven’t read this whole thread, but for me it’s logical that there will be more resistant strains due to all the people treating fish these days. The same thing happens with some organisms and antibiotics.

I’ve seen patients on multiple different antibiotics and it’s not even touching some of these organisms because they’re so resistant.

It all goes back to Snorvich’s advice. Transfer the fish to a non-medicated tank for about 4 weeks observation to play it safe. If they fail that period...it’s usually within the 1st 3 weeks. Then you know.
 

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Acquiring CP may not be the issue at hand. At least not for me. I treat alot of wrasses, which will not tolerate CP. Also other fish like blue hippos and anthias don't fare well in it either.

There is also no way to monitor the concentration in the water. At least not a cheap in home method.

I need to do additional research, but things like light, biofilm, etc. Can cause degradation. Having a suitable way to test or monitor the level without sending samples to a laboratory would change my stance here. Until we reach that milestone this is my .02.

There are fish that will not tolerate copper as well but far fewer (especially fish common to the hobby) than the number that won't tolerate CP.
Blue Hippo’s die from CP. Found that out the hard way. Check out the fish during treatment of only 40mg vs a while later after I stopped the treatment and transferred him to my DT.

During treatment:

After treatment:
 

mcpeachy

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Are we talking about chelated copper or ionic copper with these observations? Also, side question...when handling copper is it crucial to wear gloves or am I the only fool sticking my hands in the tank?
 

Brew12

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Are we talking about chelated copper or ionic copper with these observations? Also, side question...when handling copper is it crucial to wear gloves or am I the only fool sticking my hands in the tank?
This would be chelated. 1.75ppm would be much too strong for ionic.

I put my hands in the tank with copper in it.... not sure I should be doing it....
 

mcpeachy

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This would be chelated. 1.75ppm would be much too strong for ionic.

I put my hands in the tank with copper in it.... not sure I should be doing it....
yeah...i think causes cancer....we should probably have gloves on, right?
 
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Brew12

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yeah...i think causes cancer....we should probably have gloves on, right?
I honestly don't know. Can it be absorbed through the skin in meaningful amounts with our limited exposure? No idea....
 

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Whenever we suspect / notice symptoms of Velvet or ich, we begin with a prepared FW bath, then Formalin for 45 mins, followed by copper or CP depending on species...If the fish are badly infected, they will need antibiotics to avoid succumbing to a secondary bacterial infection.
We have rarely lost fish to ich or velvet in the last year or so and now all fish get this treatment prophylactically as part of our QT process in store.
This also clears up flukes to a good degree before Prazi and General cure take over.
 

MnFish1

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I honestly don't know. Can it be absorbed through the skin in meaningful amounts with our limited exposure? No idea....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4556990/

I would think the amount of copper actually - getting through your skin - unless you actually keep your hands in for a very long time would be minimal - and I wouldn't worry about it - certainly rinse carefully.

Then. there's this: " The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 2.0 mg/l.[22]". (i.e. 2 ppm)
 

MnFish1

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yeah...i think causes cancer....we should probably have gloves on, right?
Something I forgot - is that Copper is 'safe' in drinking water up to 2 ppm (and thats based on the fact that people drink water several times/day). Most people dont use enough copper to cause a problem - but if you do QT daily, etc - maybe its better to be safe than sorry.

I certainly wouldn't drink cuprmine/coppersafe directly - and if you are using those chemicals and spill them - I would be a bit careful as to how they were cleaned up/washed off your skin.
 

drstardust

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Something I forgot - is that Copper is 'safe' in drinking water up to 2 ppm (and thats based on the fact that people drink water several times/day). Most people dont use enough copper to cause a problem - but if you do QT daily, etc - maybe its better to be safe than sorry.

I certainly wouldn't drink cuprmine/coppersafe directly - and if you are using those chemicals and spill them - I would be a bit careful as to how they were cleaned up/washed off your skin.
This is yet another good reason to err on the side of caution and use gloves when handling your QT....in addition to avoiding cross contamination.
 

MnFish1

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This is yet another good reason to err on the side of caution and use gloves when handling your QT....in addition to avoiding cross contamination.
Just so its clear - the levels we usually use in QT are safe to drink - so putting your hands in the tank is probably not a huge issue. Getting the concentrated level (from the bottle) on your hands is maybe not such a good idea (it probably also says that on the label).
 

drstardust

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Just so its clear - the levels we usually use in QT are safe to drink - so putting your hands in the tank is probably not a huge issue. Getting the concentrated level (from the bottle) on your hands is maybe not such a good idea (it probably also says that on the label).
Right. I may not have been clear. But erring on the side of caution was my point. Not specifically for copper, but to avoid god knows what else can be in your QT. My .02, anyone can do as they wish. I will always lean toward an abundance of caution :)
 

Wildreefs

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Yes it may be easy for you to obtain it but not for us [emoji29].

I’ve used CP in a pinch for velvet and it’s always been very effective I just can’t get it anymore for the very reasons you stated along with concerns for drug resistance. Vets at least around me just don’t want to script it.

Either way - if 2.0 -2.5 is working it’s easy enough to switch to that. 2.50 was the original manufacturer’s recommendation anyway. I don’t do the 14 day method like you though because of lack of space so I treat for 30 days.
I’ve mentioned before on here through out the threads I’ve been going 2.5 without issue, with various copper “sensitive “ species.

A notable lfs near me has even gone higher, with no ill effect, this all measured with Hannah checker
 

MnFish1

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I’ve mentioned before on here through out the threads I’ve been going 2.5 without issue, with various copper “sensitive “ species.

A notable lfs near me has even gone higher, with no ill effect, this all measured with Hannah checker
If you look at the specs for cupramine - There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L).
 

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If you look at the specs for cupramine - There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L).
I don’t believe .2 is even close to therapeutic. I’ve personally had fish still still showing signs of parasites in .35-.4 (I was misreading the test results on the color chart) once I raised the level to .5, the symptoms resolved completely and did not return for the remainder or post-treatment.

Not lab tested of course, purely anecdotal.
 

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