BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

MnFish1

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I don’t believe .2 is even close to therapeutic. I’ve personally had fish still still showing signs of parasites in .35-.4 (I was misreading the test results on the color chart) once I raised the level to .5, the symptoms resolved completely and did not return for the remainder or post-treatment.

Not lab tested of course, purely anecdotal.
I think youre right - .2 is the 'minimum therapeutic dose'.
According to their website:
There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L). Cupramine™ is easily removable with chemical filtration. It is highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water.

If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 US gallons) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Do not redose without testing (MultiTest™ Copper). If tank has ever been treated with an ionic copper (e.g. copper chloride, sulfate or citrate), test copper level after initial dosing. Although most fish tolerate Cupramine™ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper.
 

Trickman2

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Any reason not to just go to CP (Chloroquine Phosphate) ? Also maybe it is time to go to another brand of copper.
 

Brew12

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Any reason not to just go to CP (Chloroquine Phosphate) ? Also maybe it is time to go to another brand of copper.
Not all fish can tolerate CP. CP also has some other challenges associated with it.

With @HotRocks finding that Hannah checkers are very accurate at measuring copper and helping them do the research to prove it, it almost doesn't matter which copper product is used. Even with the notoriously inconsistent batches of Coppersafe you will know exactly how much is in the water.
 

MnFish1

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@HotRocks and @4FordFamily I dont know if you read this on the other thread - I had a long conversation with Seachem - concerning their experience with resistant velvet and CI (she is going to write up a summary for me - which I'll share) it was quite interesting. They (in their lab have never seen CI or Velvet resistant to copper at the equivalent of >2 ppm) - However they have had numerous reports from 'the field' that even at levels quite a bit higher they still have problems - and have needed to use Chloroquine (normally LFS). She did not relate this to use of 'low dose copper' she related it to using higher doses (2.5/3) - but using it inconsistently - which actually makes some sense.

Also had a chat with the owner of the LFS I go to today. They use therapeutic copper only - they said they had never heard of (nor could figure out) any reason for using low-dose copper. I meant to ask their supplier - but forgot. Seachem also had not heard of this (their scientist) - So its really quite interesting if indeed it is so widespread - BUT - there is no question according to Seachem that even in their lab they are seeing strains that are are requiring higher doses of product as compared to previously. The person at Seachem said low dose copper 'might' keep levels down - but the immunosuppressant effects of copper would mean that the fish would be much more susceptible to bacteria and other things not sensitive to copper.

The only other thing Germaine to this thread - is that she (Seachem) stated that a longer treatment especially at lower doses 1.75 (than 14 days) may have worked - that they have seen this with testing. Hope this helps.
 

HotRocks

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@HotRocks and @4FordFamily
@MnFish1
I dont know if you read this on the other thread - I had a long conversation with Seachem - concerning their experience with resistant velvet and CI (she is going to write up a summary for me - which I'll share) it was quite interesting. They (in their lab have never seen CI or Velvet resistant to copper at the equivalent of >2 ppm) - However they have had numerous reports from 'the field' that even at levels quite a bit higher they still have problems - and have needed to use Chloroquine (normally LFS). She did not relate this to use of 'low dose copper' she related it to using higher doses (2.5/3) - but using it inconsistently - which actually makes some sense.

Also had a chat with the owner of the LFS I go to today. They use therapeutic copper only - they said they had never heard of (nor could figure out) any reason for using low-dose copper. I meant to ask their supplier - but forgot. Seachem also had not heard of this (their scientist) - So its really quite interesting if indeed it is so widespread - BUT - there is no question according to Seachem that even in their lab they are seeing strains that are are requiring higher doses of product as compared to previously. The person at Seachem said low dose copper 'might' keep levels down - but the immunosuppressant effects of copper would mean that the fish would be much more susceptible to bacteria and other things not sensitive to copper.

The only other thing Germaine to this thread - is that she (Seachem) stated that a longer treatment especially at lower doses 1.75 (than 14 days) may have worked - that they have seen this with testing. Hope this helps.
@MnFish1
I am on my 3rd batch of copper with fish at 2.25ppm. last two were successful in erradicating at 2.25ppm for 14 days.

I have 3 separate tanks going right now, I am on day 8 at 2.25ppm. All tanks have at least one fish present that had positive velvet ID when treatment was started.

Did you talk to them specifically about the Cu level? I'm a bit confused because they manufacturer cupramine which is an ionic copper and it is used at a much lower level so the two (chelated/ionic) are not mutual (therapeutic min is somewhere around .4-.5ppm for cupramine).

Chelated copper(copper power/coppersafe) is supposed to have a therapuetic minimum of 1.5ppm which is why I always treated at 1.75ppm (safely above the minimum but enough wiggle room for fluctuation) once we had the Hanna checker for an accurate in home test method. I treated tons of fish with much success at the 1.75ppm up until recently. Now 2.0-2.25 has been working well for me. Others mileage may vary. Also I have not lost a single fish in the 2.25 range. Currently have about +/-30 in QT.
 

DucatiGtr

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Velvet an absolute nightmare.. I lost 50
Plus fish 2 yrs ago that I had for years... maybe 10k worth. (Got lazy w qt and never realized velvet was unstoppable)
I know have started over and saved several fish from velvet.. in ny I haven’t found many lfs in which I did not get velvet.. it’s just very common now.. I’m up to 40
Something fish currently w 3 fish in a qt and all had velvet come up by 12-14 days.. I saved them all but the copperband.. there’s a gem tang in it too and currently second round of copper.. after treatment I’ll wait another month to observe.. it’s very frustrating and I’m paranoid to add anything to my tank. I try to get frags from fish free systems.
 

DucatiGtr

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I am on my 3rd batch of copper with fish at 2.25ppm. last two were successful in erradicating at 2.25ppm for 14 days.

I have 3 separate tanks going right now, I am on day 8 at 2.25ppm. All tanks have at least one fish present that had positive velvet ID when treatment was started.

Did you talk to them specifically about the Cu level? I'm a bit confused because they manufacturer cupramine which is an ionic copper and it is used at a much lower level so the two (chelated/ionic) are not mutual (therapeutic min is somewhere around .4-.5ppm for cupramine).

Chelated copper(copper power/coppersafe) is supposed to have a therapuetic minimum of 1.5ppm which is why I always treated at 1.75ppm (safely above the minimum but enough wiggle room for fluctuation) once we had the Hanna checker for an accurate in home test method. I treated tons of fish with much success at the 1.75ppm up until recently. Now 2.0-2.25 has been working well for me. Others mileage may vary. Also I have not lost a single fish in the 2.25 range. Currently have about +/-30 in QT.
I saved a dussi tang from
Velvet.. kept him in qt and 2 months later he stoped eating and died.. I think I over completed him.
 

HotRocks

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@MnFish1

Interesting discovery today. Went to a LFS (the only good one in town). He runs therapeutic copper (.5ppm cupramine). He has been losing fish to velvet left and right. Found this interesting based on our recent experience. He is actually switching his system out tomorrow. Changing to chelated copper.

I watched him test today his level was .7ppm. almost near toxicity and has been since last Thursday. He has a PBT that has been in the tank for two weeks and is progressively worsening as far as my symptoms go. Completely covered in white powder. Swimming into flow constantly and scratching on PVC if he isn't swimming into flow.

Head spinning...
 

drstardust

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@MnFish1

Interesting discovery today. Went to a LFS (the only good one in town). He runs therapeutic copper (.5ppm cupramine). He has been losing fish to velvet left and right. Found this interesting based on our recent experience. He is actually switching his system out tomorrow. Changing to chelated copper.

I watched him test today his level was .7ppm. almost near toxicity and has been since last Thursday. He has a PBT that has been in the tank for two weeks and is progressively worsening as far as my symptoms go. Completely covered in white powder. Swimming into flow constantly and scratching on PVC if he isn't swimming into flow.

Head spinning...
This is not good news :confused:;Rage;Sour
 

MnFish1

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@MnFish1

Interesting discovery today. Went to a LFS (the only good one in town). He runs therapeutic copper (.5ppm cupramine). He has been losing fish to velvet left and right. Found this interesting based on our recent experience. He is actually switching his system out tomorrow. Changing to chelated copper.

I watched him test today his level was .7ppm. almost near toxicity and has been since last Thursday. He has a PBT that has been in the tank for two weeks and is progressively worsening as far as my symptoms go. Completely covered in white powder. Swimming into flow constantly and scratching on PVC if he isn't swimming into flow.

Head spinning...
According to the one paper and the author who wrote me back - the best option is changing to chloroquine - I hope he gets it under control. She also reported that they have heard anecdotally from LFS about strains like this - but only at LFS.
 

HotRocks

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According to the one paper and the author who wrote me back - the best option is changing to chloroquine - I hope he gets it under control. She also reported that they have heard anecdotally from LFS about strains like this - but only at LFS.
I 100% agree that CP is the answer. He's worried about anthias, Wrasse, etc.

It makes alot of sense for an LFS to see this based on sheer volume and not being able to sterilize systems.
 

Brew12

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I 100% agree that CP is the answer. He's worried about anthias, Wrasse, etc.

It makes alot of sense for an LFS to see this based on sheer volume and not being able to sterilize systems.
I doubt CP is the answer in this case. We know biofilm will break it down and these tanks have to have a very mature biofilm if it is like any LFS's I've been to.
 

HotRocks

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I doubt CP is the answer in this case. We know biofilm will break it down and these tanks have to have a very mature biofilm if it is like any LFS's I've been to.
Without sterilization it is the most likely solution for eliminating a resistant strain.

I know of about 6 LFS that have used it per the advice of humble and corrected the issue. It does require redosing CP every few days because of the mature biofilm.

The ultimate would be to completely dump the system and bleach it. We all know that's not going to happen...
 

MnFish1

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I 100% agree that CP is the answer. He's worried about anthias, Wrasse, etc.

It makes alot of sense for an LFS to see this based on sheer volume and not being able to sterilize systems.
Maybe he should try the medicated food?
 

MnFish1

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For what?
The fish store with the resistant velvet - it contains chloroquine. I wonder if it would be a better option for some of the more sensitive fish? Supposedly - there is less 'total exposure' - they are not bathing in it 24 7. But it is supposedly effective against velvet and CI.
 

Trickman2

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Following along with this nightmare information. Let me understand this...So what are we saying is.

Ionic Copper - No longer works on some strains of velvet
Using chelated copper levels of 2.25 ppm seems to work.
Chloroquine Phosphate - might be able to eliminate the strain if used correctly
Velvet is everywhere

So are we concluding that low dose copper at fish stores are creating Copper resistant strains of velvet? The industry needs to get this under control in my opinion. If this is the case then the wholesalers need to be informed...IE Quality Marine, etc and hope that this information can be spread. Maybe it is a matter of fish stores going to CP instead of copper...Huge amounts of money on the line and many hobbyists that will fail and not come back to the hobby.
 

HotRocks

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The fish store with the resistant velvet - it contains chloroquine. I wonder if it would be a better option for some of the more sensitive fish? Supposedly - there is less 'total exposure' - they are not bathing in it 24 7. But it is supposedly effective against velvet and CI.
While it may help, I don't think there is evidence to support simply feeding CP laced food will successfully erradicate external parasites.

If this were the case there wouldn't be such a need for QT. ;)
 

MnFish1

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While it may help, I don't think there is evidence to support simply feeding CP laced food will successfully erradicate external parasites.

If this were the case there wouldn't be such a need for QT. ;)
Perhaps there isn't? I mean - I have no clue - whether the food works or not - I was specifically mentioning it because my guess is that food may treat things better than a 'bath'.

I had some HLLE in my discus (2 of them for no clear reason) - I fed food with fembendazole - and it completely resolved. But - yeah - its all anecdote. I was more talking about the fish that were more sensitive to CP:)
 

MnFish1

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Following along with this nightmare information. Let me understand this...So what are we saying is.

Ionic Copper - No longer works on some strains of velvet
Using chelated copper levels of 2.25 ppm seems to work.
Chloroquine Phosphate - might be able to eliminate the strain if used correctly
Velvet is everywhere

So are we concluding that low dose copper at fish stores are creating Copper resistant strains of velvet? The industry needs to get this under control in my opinion. If this is the case then the wholesalers need to be informed...IE Quality Marine, etc and hope that this information can be spread. Maybe it is a matter of fish stores going to CP instead of copper...Huge amounts of money on the line and many hobbyists that will fail and not come back to the hobby.
According to Seachem - its LFS using 'high' doses of copper thats causing resistance. - but in any case - its misuse of copper. FWIW - the first report of resistant velvet was years ago (2011) - and I spoke with the author of the paper - who said - it was in an LFS that was using copper up to 2.7 ppm - but still having deaths from velvet and the only 'cure' was CP. So - I think this has been a problem for some time - as compared to 'something new'. This again is only my opinion - based on my recent research.
 

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