BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

[scchase]

I have been having problems as well. On three separate occasions over the past 2 months in 3 different q tanks I have had velvet survive and kill fish in copper. All three occasions were fish being treated in copper power. First time was a total q tank wipe from velvet with levels between 2.25 and 2.5. From initial symptoms to death of all fish was over the course of a week. Velvet was observed on the fish throughout the treatment.
Second failure was a powder blue tang and tomini tang treated at 2.5 according to the checker. No initial symptoms but over the course of 2 weeks symptoms developed first on the pbt which developed spots and started swimming into the current. The tomini tang started the same symptoms after the death of the pbt and died a week later.
Final failure was in yet a separate q tank with a blue spot angel. No initial symptoms but spots started to develope after 2 weeks in copper levels at 2.85. In addition to the checker this bare tank was dosed carefully and should be close to this measurement based on dosing. The fish is currently in a formalin bath and will be transferred to a tank being treated with chloroquine phosphate after the bath.

Meanwhile another group of fish was received 2 weeks ago showing signs of velvet. This group of fish was from a tank breakdown and he had been losing fish consistently over the past month so they appear to have had some resistance. Upon arrival all fish were showing spotting on the fins and avoiding light. These fish were given a formalin bath and than transferred to a tank with cp. They are currently free of spots back to swimming normally and eating well.

So either I am dealing with a copper resistant form of velvet or my checker as well as dosing measurements are off or something is wrong with my copper power that prevents it from working but still allows it to be measured. Final possibility is I am dealing with some other disease that very strongly resembles velvet.

 

[Lasse]

So either I am dealing with a copper resistant form of velvet or my checker as well as dosing measurements are off or something is wrong with my copper power that prevents it from working but still allows it to be measured. Final possibility is I am dealing with some other disease that very strongly resembles velvet.

You have not considered that your high concentrations of copper may have reduced the fish's own immune system so much that they have become hypersensitive to this parasite (or another facultative pathogen) at all? All here seems to say that if the velvet parasite is present it will give a disease directly in 100 cases of 90 - with other words - an obligate pathogen - and it goes very fast. Your fish seems to have been unaffected during the first 14 days (a little uncertain about the first case because you only mention 1 week after the first onset). For me it looks more as an faculative pathogen. Only my two cents - I have never seen this by myself.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HotRocks]

I have been having problems as well. On three separate occasions over the past 2 months in 3 different q tanks I have had velvet survive and kill fish in copper. All three occasions were fish being treated in copper power. First time was a total q tank wipe from velvet with levels between 2.25 and 2.5. From initial symptoms to death of all fish was over the course of a week. Velvet was observed on the fish throughout the treatment.
Second failure was a powder blue tang and tomini tang treated at 2.5 according to the checker. No initial symptoms but over the course of 2 weeks symptoms developed first on the pbt which developed spots and started swimming into the current. The tomini tang started the same symptoms after the death of the pbt and died a week later.
Final failure was in yet a separate q tank with a blue spot angel. No initial symptoms but spots started to develope after 2 weeks in copper levels at 2.85. In addition to the checker this bare tank was dosed carefully and should be close to this measurement based on dosing. The fish is currently in a formalin bath and will be transferred to a tank being treated with chloroquine phosphate after the bath.

Meanwhile another group of fish was received 2 weeks ago showing signs of velvet. This group of fish was from a tank breakdown and he had been losing fish consistently over the past month so they appear to have had some resistance. Upon arrival all fish were showing spotting on the fins and avoiding light. These fish were given a formalin bath and than transferred to a tank with cp. They are currently free of spots back to swimming normally and eating well.

So either I am dealing with a copper resistant form of velvet or my checker as well as dosing measurements are off or something is wrong with my copper power that prevents it from working but still allows it to be measured. Final possibility is I am dealing with some other disease that very strongly resembles velvet.

Something is odd here. I have never seen velvet during therapeutic copper. The instances that it was able to survive 14 days of therapeutic treatment, the fish seemed clear when treatment was complete. Then within 5 days of being transferred to a new clean non-medicated tank the symptoms returned.

Do you have the Hanna calibration check set for your tester? If not I would order it and see if your tester is within range.

Also, does your dosing seem consistent with your test results? Meaning if you dose copper that should yield 2.0ppm, do you get a test result of 2.0ppm or something similar?

 

[scchase]

Dosing is consistent with what my test results are within the margin of error of the tester. Trust me it has surprised the heck out of me to see fish develop the symptoms of velvet while in copper.

 

[HotRocks]

Dosing is consistent with what my test results are within the margin of error of the tester. Trust me it has surprised the heck out of me to see fish develop the symptoms of velvet while in copper.

What kind of symptoms were they exhibiting?

Do you run wavemakers, powerheads, airstone, in your QT? Oxygenation is a very important part of the QT process when using medications.

Also do you keep an ammonia badge in your tank with proper biological filtration?

I'm not saying it wasn't velvet, the Cu levels you provided in your previous post lead me to believe it's not velvet and you are dealing with something else.

There are viral diseases that can take fish very quickly. The copper suppressing the immune system could exacerbate something of the like.

 

[scchase]

Symptoms include hiding from the light, when lights are off swimming at the top or into the current, tiny white spots much smaller than Crypt, final symptom is to stop eating and then dead within 2 days.
I currently have 5 different q tanks running to recover from the fish losses I had due to a house fire in May (nearly all across a 1200g, 480g, 350g, 135g tanks), in these tanks all but 1 have hang on the back filters, all have sponge filters, the largest one has powerheads. Ammonia badges have never shown the presence of ammonia and all of these tanks have been cycled and had sponge filters added from a clean display. I have been in the hobby since 1992 and seen velvet, Crypt, Brook and every other disease over the years so I am 95% sure on my diagnosis, this is the first time I have ever had it live through copper which is the only reason I am not 100% sure.
So far it has appeared in three of the q tanks though this is through cross contamination due to not believing it could survive copper and trying to save fish that were quickly dying. Q tanks sizes are 110G, 48G, 40G, 15G, and 10G. All but the 10g has had it at some point, the 110g was cleaned and dried and reset up with the most recent batch of velvet fish (I intentionally purchased these knowing they had velvet and treated them with CP instead, they are clear at this point).
Locally velvet is rampant at LFS, I have seen it at all but one LFS in the past month and know at least 2 have broken down fish banks and restarted because of problems.
Fish that I have lost so far from this disease??? Niger Trigger x2 (one jumped while showing symptoms), Black Durgeon Trigger, Powder Blue tang, Tomini Tang, Allens Damselfish, French Angel, Checkerboard wrasse, Naso Tang, Maroon Clown x2. Meanwhile I have got approx 35 including angels and tangs other fish through quarantine and into 2 of my empty displays with no problems.

 

[drstardust]

There are viral diseases that can take fish very quickly

I did not know this. Do you have more information on this?

 

[MnFish1]

I did not know this. Do you have more information on this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230840/

 

[Lasse]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230840/

The article mentioned some viruses known mostly from farmed Salmon fishes and nothing about the infection speed. Most of the diseases mentioned in the article progress rather slowly, the pathogen can be there, but the disease outbreak normally triggers by stress factors.

I doubt that this is primary an obligate virus depended disease, but the stress in the QT and the aggressive copper treatment can of cause trig even virus caused diseases.

Let me put it this way – If I suddenly get a pain in my big toe and there is an elephant in the room - my first reaction would be to investigate if it can be the elephant that is standing on my toe – my first reaction would certainly not be if it could be a mini comet that has travelled through space that suddenly hit my toe – it possible but for sure – not my first thought.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[drstardust]

Very interesting stuff.

 

[Umair]

my ongoing experience with copper power has been very similar to @scchase.

*got velvet in DT
*all fishes removed
*put through one hour of ruby rally bath
*transferred to QT maintained btw 2.1-2.2 ppm copper power using hanna high range checker
*fishes health improved considerably and within one day all fishes eating again
*after 5 days noticed Achilles stopped eating, other kept on taking feed
*2 days later all tangs stopped eating nori
*velvet spots clearly visible on achilles and hippo body
*posted on reef2reef for help, advised to check for flukes
*with flukes present, dosed general cure
*kole tang died 2 days later, followed by achilles and pair of skunk clowns

during all this period copper power was maintained above 2.0 ppm, using hanna checker and ratios mentioned by @HotRocks. remaining fishes also do not look healthy and im really worried.
meanwhile a friend of mine also had outbreak of velvet and he started treatment with formalin, with excellent results so far.

 

[HotRocks]

Let me put it this way – If I suddenly get a pain in my big toe and there is an elephant in the room - my first reaction would be to investigate if it can be the elephant that is standing on my toe – my first reaction would certainly not be if it could be a mini comet that has travelled through space that suddenly hit my toe – it possible but for sure – not my first thought.

Makes sense

my ongoing experience with copper power has been very similar to @scchase.

*got velvet in DT
*all fishes removed
*put through one hour of ruby rally bath
*transferred to QT maintained btw 2.1-2.2 ppm copper power using hanna high range checker
*fishes health improved considerably and within one day all fishes eating again
*after 5 days noticed Achilles stopped eating, other kept on taking feed
*2 days later all tangs stopped eating nori
*velvet spots clearly visible on achilles and hippo body
*posted on reef2reef for help, advised to check for flukes
*with flukes present, dosed general cure
*kole tang died 2 days later, followed by achilles and pair of skunk clowns

during all this period copper power was maintained above 2.0 ppm, using hanna checker and ratios mentioned by @HotRocks. remaining fishes also do not look healthy and im really worried.
meanwhile a friend of mine also had outbreak of velvet and he started treatment with formalin, with excellent results so far.

The thing with velvet is.... Secondary bacterial infections. It's a double edged sword. You need copper or CP to shield the fish from becoming heavily afflicted with the parasite.

Then the secondary bacterial infections can set in from all of the entrance wounds. This is hard to deal with when the fish are in copper because the immune system is suppressed by copper. So sometimes it may be necessary to dose kanamycin and nitrofurazone with copper in order to control the infection.

 

[jcricket]

Hey Folks,
I am a lurker here. I did not read the entire thread. I was going to post some information on Velvet as I just had a tank decimated by it. I have spent a great deal of time searching for, reading and digesting all available information I could find on this parasite. It was quite an exhaustive search. I tried to use only peer reviewed scholarly published papers. These would be scientific studies from universities, state departments of agriculture and so on. I did read many threads on places like R2R for peoples information and experiences. I am going to take a day or two more and see if I can summarize what I have learned. I'll post that later.

Here is a link to the BEST published paper I could find. It is a bit of a read but has excellent and specific information in it.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/42ce/97fb8bb87e375e3325ee84462fd1eea3f247.pdf

 

[jcricket]

Hey Folks,
I am a lurker here. I did not read the entire thread. I was going to post some information on Velvet as I just had a tank decimated by it. I have spent a great deal of time searching for, reading and digesting all available information I could find on this parasite. It was quite an exhaustive search. I tried to use only peer reviewed scholarly published papers. These would be scientific studies from universities, state departments of agriculture and so on. I did read many threads on places like R2R for peoples information and experiences. I am going to take a day or two more and see if I can summarize what I have learned. I'll post that later.

Here is a link to the BEST published paper I could find. It is a bit of a read but has excellent and specific information in it.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/42ce/97fb8bb87e375e3325ee84462fd1eea3f247.pdf

Here is a summary of my online research on velvet.

First, there is a lot of information that varies and even seems contradictory. This may be due to the large number of species or strains of velvet. Even so there is also some very consistent information.

This is the information that seems to be consistent wherever I read. There are four different stages of velvet. These are the trophont stage where you can see the spot on the fish. Next is the tomite stage where the cycst has left the body and is now actively dividing into numerous cells. The next stage is the dynospore. This is the stage where the tomite “hatches” and turns into free swimming organisms. This is called sporulation. THIS IS THE STAGE WHERE THE PARASITE CAN BE TREATED. The last stage is when it is the parasite actively burrowing into the fish. Some studies and papers do not recognize this phase.

These stages are pretty much agreed upon by all of the papers and writings I could find. Some other generalities that were consistent included affecting factors. Lower temperatures slowed down the process and warmer temperatures would speed up the process. It seems the 75-77 degrees were about optimal for the most active life cycle of the parasite. A few more generalities include when the parasite can be effectively killed. Many treatments would slow down the division. Some treatments might help the “cysts” fall off the fish faster. However, the only time the parasite could be successfully eradicated was when it was free swimming, in its dynospore stage. Many papers and articles talked about treatment options including malachite green, formalin, nitrofurazone, etc. Copper seems to be the only real cure for the parasite. Please allow me to explain this.

This last statement was based on studies that I read that actually did tests. They used microscopes, biopsies, number counts of parasites, etc. These testes were performed in universities and other controlled situations. They seem to conclude that many treatments do affect the division of the parasite and number of free swimming spores, but copper seemed to be the only that killed the parasite. So the use of treatments other than copper may be effective with a longer treatment course and close monitoring, copper is the best treatment for killing the parasite. Obviously, other situations need to be evaluated such as the presence of inverts, or delicate fish.

Here are some generalizations that I have tried to summarize from my readings. These are kind of summary of articles where the information was similar. Remember there is a tremendous amount of variance in the information on line.

One, the tomite stage where the cyst is incubating averages 3-5 days at 75-77 degrees. However there were instances of up to 16 days at this stage.

Two, once they became free swimming, they could live for up to 15 days without a host. It is also believed that the dynospores can get some nutrition from light. So lack of light can be a helpful treatment for the parasite.

Third, I could not find a specific time frame for when the parasite infects the fish until the cyst drops. It seems there a huge number of variables such as temperature, fish species etc. One study noted nearly six months dormancy on the fish before it became infectious again. I find that study to be suspect. In most readings it seems like 7-10 days on this fish is extreme.

If you add these days up, it comes to about 6 weeks from infestation to re-infestation. These are the outside parameters and the extreme. My gut level feeling is it is far more rapid than this and can complete a complete life cycle in as little as 7-10 days. The 6 weeks would be a useful number for determining how long to leave a tank fallow and untreated before adding fish back to the tank.

So the effective treatment for velvet is copper at .2-.5 ppm. I have a quarantine tank now with copper at about .4ppm. The hipo and powder blue tang have recovered and look great. This is day 8 of treatment. I am going to keep them in QT for at least another 3 weeks to be sure.


Lastly, I want to emphasize this is “MY FINDINGS” after extensive research. So take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Lasse]

Hey Folks,
I am a lurker here. I did not read the entire thread. I was going to post some information on Velvet as I just had a tank decimated by it. I have spent a great deal of time searching for, reading and digesting all available information I could find on this parasite. It was quite an exhaustive search. I tried to use only peer reviewed scholarly published papers. These would be scientific studies from universities, state departments of agriculture and so on. I did read many threads on places like R2R for peoples information and experiences. I am going to take a day or two more and see if I can summarize what I have learned. I'll post that later.

Here is a link to the BEST published paper I could find. It is a bit of a read but has excellent and specific information in it.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/42ce/97fb8bb87e375e3325ee84462fd1eea3f247.pdf

Thank you - I´m just reading through it - it is very good and give new understandings.

Sincerely lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you - I´m just reading through it - it is very good and give new understandings.

Sincerely lasse

The immunity section was extremely interesting.And the fact that the life cycle can take more than 14 days.

 

[ReeferReefer]

This thread makes me question everything lol.

I will still probably QT but without a definitive method to eradicate velvet, this hobby just got a lot more tough.

 

[lagatbezan]

Got four fish in qt currently. Coral beauty, Clown fish, Bristletooth tang and heniochus butterfly. They are currently in day 10 of therapeutic copper (copper power) at levels 2.0 for the first 3-4 days and at 2.2-2.4 for the last 6 days; tested with Hanna tester and as of 3-4 days ago I noticed a few spots on the coral beauty that resemble ich (maybe velvet? not sure).
They went through 5 days of hypo originally to prophetically treat for flukes. I'm trying to be optimistic and hoping that its lympho but doesnt look like it might be.
If it is ich/velvet, its crazy and I'm speechless. I'm thinking of transferring them to a new QT and starting a CP treatment tomorrow.

 

[drstardust]

Got four fish in qt currently. Coral beauty, Clown fish, Bristletooth tang and heniochus butterfly. They are currently in day 10 of therapeutic copper (copper power) at levels 2.0 for the first 3-4 days and at 2.2-2.4 for the last 6 days; tested with Hanna tester and as of 3-4 days ago I noticed a few spots on the coral beauty that resemble ich (maybe velvet? not sure).
They went through 5 days of hypo originally to prophetically treat for flukes. I'm trying to be optimistic and hoping that its lympho but doesnt look like it might be.
If it is ich/velvet, its crazy and I'm speechless. I'm thinking of transferring them to a new QT and starting a CP treatment tomorrow.

Curious, any updates?

 

[Umair]

Makes sense

The thing with velvet is.... Secondary bacterial infections. It's a double edged sword. You need copper or CP to shield the fish from becoming heavily afflicted with the parasite.

Then the secondary bacterial infections can set in from all of the entrance wounds. This is hard to deal with when the fish are in copper because the immune system is suppressed by copper. So sometimes it may be necessary to dose kanamycin and nitrofurazone with copper in order to control the infection.

everything is mentioned on this forum however for some unfortunate reason i always miss the critical part. after your message i went through the velvet description by @Humblefish again and he clearly mentions to use some antibiotic to ward off infections. Wish i had done that when i transferred all my fishes to qt and all were still eating.

anyways since dosing kanaplex, furan-2 and metro together i was able to save my naso which was breathing heavily and had lost some balance, my hippo, foxface, clowns and firefish. s

Successfully completed now about 35 days of copper and now finally fishes look healthy and happy again!

Sincere thanks to @HotRocks and @Humblefish