BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

Badilac

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Well I have officially seen this strain. I QT’ed my Achilles Tang in copper power at 1.80 - 1-88 for 14 days then moved him to a fresh sterile tank. About 5 days in the sterile tank (treating with GC) I notice he has Velvet, so I’ve started treatment with CP this time. He currently is not eating and that started the day I noticed the Velvet (Friday). Today (Monday) he took some food in his mouth but spit it back out. His breathing is back to normal compared to the day I noticed Velvet. Wish me luck beating this crap!
 

MnFish1

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Well I have officially seen this strain. I QT’ed my Achilles Tang in copper power at 1.80 - 1-88 for 14 days then moved him to a fresh sterile tank. About 5 days in the sterile tank (treating with GC) I notice he has Velvet, so I’ve started treatment with CP this time. He currently is not eating and that started the day I noticed the Velvet (Friday). Today (Monday) he took some food in his mouth but spit it back out. His breathing is back to normal compared to the day I noticed Velvet. Wish me luck beating this crap!
There is evidence that it takes longer than 14 days In medication to treat velvet (on occasion). Treat it longer than 14 days. The protocol here is experimental (though wisely thought out.)
 

Jeeperz

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Read the whole 18 pages. Very worrisome as the only local saltwater store that's worth it's salt is Petco and those fish always have one thing or another and all share the same sump. They do have some fish I like.

Is there a consensus on best qt method yet? I have a whole slew of stuff from Ruby reef rally to metroplex, kanaplex, furan2, focus, prazipro, and copper safe. I have a single 29 gallon to use for qt.
 

DanielJameS

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I am 90% certain I'm dealing with this RIGHT NOW. I have a Powder Brown who's been in the high range of Copper Power for 15 days now and is STILL exhibiting every behavioral sign of Velvet. At first, I suspected gill flukes because I couldn't believe the velvet could still be impacting him this bad at this point, particularly because he's also had a FW dip.

I sold my Hanna HR copper checker a while back as I didn't have as much use for it, now I'm really wishing I had it. I'm substantially over the dosage for Copper Power listed in these Copper Power threads (for my particular size QT) but one that I've run in the past with no negative effects to the fish. The API test matches levels I knew were therapeutic in the past (cross ref with Hanna), and I'm hesitant to add MORE copper as it's already technically overdosed. I'm really scratching my head here, but based on my previous experience(s) this has all the tell-tale signs of Velvet, not to mention this fish came from an LFS I'm certain has Velvet in their system and there was a clown fish in the same tank who appeared to be dying of velvet. To make matters worse they run sub-therapeutic Cupramine.

I just gave him a peroxide bath per @Humblefish instructions to try and alleviate some irritation and noticed a suspect "patch" on the side of the fish using a flashlight. Paired with the behavioral symptoms, sure looks like velvet to me. What the heck is going on here with this parasite? The last thing we need is this tank killer now giving us all double middle fingers to our treatments....
 

FrancineJ

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I am 90% certain I'm dealing with this RIGHT NOW. I have a Powder Brown who's been in the high range of Copper Power for 15 days now and is STILL exhibiting every behavioral sign of Velvet. At first, I suspected gill flukes because I couldn't believe the velvet could still be impacting him this bad at this point, particularly because he's also had a FW dip.

I sold my Hanna HR copper checker a while back as I didn't have as much use for it, now I'm really wishing I had it. I'm substantially over the dosage for Copper Power listed in these Copper Power threads (for my particular size QT) but one that I've run in the past with no negative effects to the fish. The API test matches levels I knew were therapeutic in the past (cross ref with Hanna), and I'm hesitant to add MORE copper as it's already technically overdosed. I'm really scratching my head here, but based on my previous experience(s) this has all the tell-tale signs of Velvet, not to mention this fish came from an LFS I'm certain has Velvet in their system and there was a clown fish in the same tank who appeared to be dying of velvet. To make matters worse they run sub-therapeutic Cupramine.

I just gave him a peroxide bath per @Humblefish instructions to try and alleviate some irritation and noticed a suspect "patch" on the side of the fish using a flashlight. Paired with the behavioral symptoms, sure looks like velvet to me. What the heck is going on here with this parasite? The last thing we need is this tank killer now giving us all double middle fingers to our treatments....
No offense to this comment but why on earth would you purchase a fish you knew was sick? And that has sick fish around him?? That seems like you were asking for trouble.... now I had used copper power before and it didn’t work quite as well as when I used cupramine... have you thought about switching to see if it helps? You really don’t have much to lose because of this is in fact Velvet you likely don’t have much time....
 

AcanthurusRex

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I used metroplex in conjunction with copper; dosed it per instructions for a couple of weeks. Metro provides anti-bacterial and anti-protozoan treatment while the copper does it's thing long term.
I also raised CopperPower up to 2 ppm and kept them in copper for 5 weeks. No issues with the medications.
I initially went fallow for 7 weeks and this velvet came back within a week of adding the fish back to the DT. I pulled all the fish again and did the above treatment since none of them were in bad shape yet; no dips.
The tank was fallow 16 additional weeks. The molly has been in the DT going on three weeks. I'm still hesitant to move the fish out of QT, the fish have been in QT since April.
 

FrancineJ

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I used metroplex in conjunction with copper; dosed it per instructions for a couple of weeks. Metro provides anti-bacterial and anti-protozoan treatment while the copper does it's thing long term.
I also raised CopperPower up to 2 ppm and kept them in copper for 5 weeks. No issues with the medications.
I initially went fallow for 7 weeks and this velvet came back within a week of adding the fish back to the DT. I pulled all the fish again and did the above treatment since none of them were in bad shape yet; no dips.
The tank was fallow 16 additional weeks. The molly has been in the DT going on three weeks. I'm still hesitant to move the fish out of QT, the fish have been in QT since April.
You left a fish (the molly) in the DT while it was fallow?? That right there is your issue.... you can not have ANY fish in the DT during the fallow period.... just your CUC/ shrimps and corals....no fish....
Did you by chance add anything during the fallow period? Like anything at all? Shrimps? More cuc? More corals? If you added ANYTHING during the fallow period you have to start back at day 1
Also, in my experience I always treated with cupramine for the recommended time and THEN after it was over and I removed all the copper I treated with Metro, Furan 2, and kanaplex all at once (doing water changes every 48 hrs I believe as per the furan 2 and then redosing it all for the proper amount of time) and then just left the fish in the hospital tank for the rest of the fallow period....
But again if you had fish in there you can not count that as “fallow”.... that likely could be your mistake.... also what did you have in your hospital tank? And what did you use as your filter? And what was in it?
 

AcanthurusRex

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Fallow means fishless in this context. Sixteen weeks according to my post. That’s sixteen weeks with no fish in the system.
 

FrancineJ

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Fallow means fishless in this context. Sixteen weeks according to my post. That’s sixteen weeks with no fish in the system.
Yes I am aware what fallow means... but in the last post I responded too there was mention of a black molly being in the tank and it sounded like he was in there during your fallow period.... if that’s the case then your tank was never fallow...
Also, if you added anything during that period.... like snails, shrimp or corals... you must start your counting over at day 1 because although they can not get diseases they are certainly carriers of them... so again when you are “fallow” you can not add ANYTHING to your tank during that period and if you do then you start back at day 1....
 

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He stated that the mollies have only been in the DT for 3 weeks post-16 weeks fallow.
 

FrancineJ

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He stated that the mollies have only been in the DT for 3 weeks post-16 weeks fallow.
Sorry I must have read it wrong.....I just wanted to make sure he had not added anything else too like snails, shrimp or corals because if he had then it would have effected the dates and he would have had to start his counting over.... I just have not heard of this happening before.... after that long so I was just trying to figure out if there was something else that may have effected the situation.... or maybe what he was using for a test kit to make sure his copper power was actually at therapeutic levels.... I personally have never used it.... I have only used cupramine and then after the copper treatment was done... and after it was out of the water... then I used metroplex, kanaplex and furan 2 all at the same time (with water changes as per the furan 2 and then redosed them all) and I haven’t lost a fish that way.... also some people put rock and sand in the hospital tank so I also just wanted to make sure that he hadn’t because it can effect the meds....again I was just trying to help him find a reason why this might have happened... as I know this must suck .... for him and the fish....
 

AcanthurusRex

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I may have been rambling a bit...so I'll add to it.
I've QT'd all my fish. Mostly using CP and later @HotRocks protocol with CopperPower.
Just after this thread was started, I ordered a convict tang from LA. The tang came in perfect and started my normal QT. I did something really stupid and cross-contaminated the DT. I pulled all the fish and put them in a 55g QT when they showed signs of velvet.
The convict tang went though the normal 2 weeks CopperPower/GC and transfer to an observation tank. No issues. The fish were in the observation tank for about 5 weeks. There were also 2 midas blennies from the LA order that went through QT with the tang.
I moved the convict tang and one of the blennies into the DT after a 7-week fallow period. After a few weeks, I added the rest of the gang back into the DT. Within a week I saw the signs of velvet. The blenny suddenly died. I can only speculate that the tiniest number of dinospores had survived; I did not turn off the lights.
Pulled all the fish out again for treatment, this was the 4th of July weekend. The DT was fallow until Nov. 2nd when I added a molly to test the water.
I think the convict tang was clean. The second blenny went into an RSR170 after QT and that tank did not develop velvet.
I did not have an issue clearing the velvet using CopperPower both times. The convict tang was QT'd at 1.75ppm CopperPower.
The only fish I lost to velvet was my captive-bred flame angel.
This may not have been the super Cu resistant strain but it has been very persistent. Supposedly 6 weeks is a conservative fallow period for velvet.
The molly will be in the DT for 3 weeks this weekend. Still looks fine. I'm still hesitant to move the fish back into the DT.
As far as CopperPower versus Cupramine; CopperPower is supposed to be easier on the fish. When you get it to the desired level it stays there. It is possible we should be running CopperPower at 2.5ppm as indicated on the bottle.
 

FrancineJ

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I may have been rambling a bit...so I'll add to it.
I've QT'd all my fish. Mostly using CP and later @HotRocks protocol with CopperPower.
Just after this thread was started, I ordered a convict tang from LA. The tang came in perfect and started my normal QT. I did something really stupid and cross-contaminated the DT. I pulled all the fish and put them in a 55g QT when they showed signs of velvet.
The convict tang went though the normal 2 weeks CopperPower/GC and transfer to an observation tank. No issues. The fish were in the observation tank for about 5 weeks. There were also 2 midas blennies from the LA order that went through QT with the tang.
I moved the convict tang and one of the blennies into the DT after a 7-week fallow period. After a few weeks, I added the rest of the gang back into the DT. Within a week I saw the signs of velvet. The blenny suddenly died. I can only speculate that the tiniest number of dinospores had survived; I did not turn off the lights.
Pulled all the fish out again for treatment, this was the 4th of July weekend. The DT was fallow until Nov. 2nd when I added a molly to test the water.
I think the convict tang was clean. The second blenny went into an RSR170 after QT and that tank did not develop velvet.
I did not have an issue clearing the velvet using CopperPower both times. The convict tang was QT'd at 1.75ppm CopperPower.
The only fish I lost to velvet was my captive-bred flame angel.
This may not have been the super Cu resistant strain but it has been very persistent. Supposedly 6 weeks is a conservative fallow period for velvet.
The molly will be in the DT for 3 weeks this weekend. Still looks fine. I'm still hesitant to move the fish back into the DT.
As far as CopperPower versus Cupramine; CopperPower is supposed to be easier on the fish. When you get it to the desired level it stays there. It is possible we should be running CopperPower at 2.5ppm as indicated on the bottle.
Yes that clears it up much better for me lol
CP is much better then cupramine but I can’t get it where I am in Canada (or at least it’s not easy to find lol)
I think that would be the only issue I could see (that it maybe should have been up at at least 2.0 or at 2.25) but if the molly has been in there for weeks I would say you’re ok.... maybe try with just a few more fish for a couple weeks and see.... then add the rest?? I know it’s hard to add them back in because it’s scary to think you may have to do it all AGAIN.... but you won’t know if you don’t try lol
Good Luck!!
 

AcanthurusRex

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Claims made without evidence should be dismissed out of hand
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Your fish are no more immune than mine...lot's of clams in their diet.
Faith-based medical advice, do you have a good shaman to recommend.
 

Brew12

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Claims made without evidence should be dismissed out of hand
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Your fish are no more immune than mine...lot's of clams in their diet.
Faith-based medical advice, do you have a good shaman to recommend.
You are going almost completely on faith based medical advice, also. You will not find scientific studies on fallow periods of aquariums. You will not find scientific studies on the use of copper power. You've just chosen to follow a different shaman and to only require extraordinary evidence of different claims.
We would all be better off if we would be honest that there is little science to directly support much of what we do in the hobby. Be it fish immunity or fish treatments, at best we take information from science and adapt it to our situations.
 

AcanthurusRex

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You are going almost completely on faith based medical advice, also. You will not find scientific studies on fallow periods of aquariums. You will not find scientific studies on the use of copper power. You've just chosen to follow a different shaman and to only require extraordinary evidence of different claims.
We would all be better off if we would be honest that there is little science to directly support much of what we do in the hobby. Be it fish immunity or fish treatments, at best we take information from science and adapt it to our situations.
in that case, move the "Fish disease and Treatment" forum to the lounge area where it belongs?
 

Brew12

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in that case, move the "Fish disease and Treatment" forum to the lounge area where it belongs?
Why? This hobby is full of information that isn't proven via scientific studies. We rely very heavily on what is little more than anecdotal evidence. We grow in this hobby by sharing our experiences and what we believe worked for us. Quite often there is science that supports what it is we are trying. That science supports both copper based medications and relying on fish immunity. If anything, there is more scientific research done on fish immunity than on treatments.

I'd suggest that you not mock those who don't follow your methods or beliefs, you may be the one who isn't following sound science. If you live near a major aquarium or aquatic research center I would suggest reaching out to a marine biologist there. You may be surprised what you learn.
 
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