Bangai/Kaudern Cardinal Fish dying?

[Herides]

Just to give a short history, late last night I caught a small scene of my 2 cardinals chasing each other, not behavior I've seen them do before (though I have only had them for 2 to 3 weeks so far) and then the chasing stopped and the smaller one continued behaving like normal but the bigger one has starting to sit on the sand bed, occasionally letting itself get turned almost sideways in the flow, usually righting itself before then, and at times it looks like it's breathing heavily. Decided to wait out the following morning and it's still kind of listlessly sitting on the sand. I did notice a short stringy poop still on it and it did real quickly swim to the other side of the tank just now and is sitting against the waiter intake for my canister filter, I have seen him do that before but that was on the first day I got him and at the time he did have the strength to pull himself off of it so I think he still does now.

Water parameters are perfect so I'm not sure why this is happening, if anyone has any insight it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[lapin]

Could be damage from collection. I have had a few die for no apparent reason soon after buying them. I also notice a lot of similar threads.

 

[Herides]

Could be damage from collection. I have had a few die for no apparent reason soon after buying them. I also notice a lot of similar threads.

Could it be from aggression with the other cardinal? Before I left for work (after I wrote this post) I did see them next to each other and thought I saw the small one chasing it off. Fish can't get "tuckered out" from fighting each other can they?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It would be unusual for the smaller fish to be able to cause damage to the larger one, in fish fights the larger one wins. I worry something else could be going on.
Can you see post a short video taken under white light?
Jay

 

[RobertTheNurse]

I've had 3 of these types of fish die on me. One is nearing the finish line of quarentine, its currently completing its PraziPro treatment. When it makes it to my display tank if all works out then it is gonna be challenged to get along with my other 4 fish.

All the best!

We love videos and pictures as im sure your aware. Almost a prerequisit when asking for help IDing or assessing something to do with our tanks.

 

[Herides]

I can try getting photos/vid tomorrow. He has been sitting in the same spot in the tank all day, I can tell one of his fins is damaged but what has me more worried is he's not eating.

 

[threebuoys]

This is a long shot, have the two cardinals mated perhaps? I would not expect that for the short time you've had them, but when they are old enough, the larger fish is usually the male, and he will hold the eggs in his mouth after they've been released by the female. During that time, the male does not eat. His lower jaw will be noticeably more e square and full compared to the female.

Mine started mating a couple of months after I got them.

 

[Herides]

This is a long shot, have the two cardinals mated perhaps? I would not expect that for the short time you've had them, but when they are old enough, the larger fish is usually the male, and he will hold the eggs in his mouth after they've been released by the female. During that time, the male does not eat. His lower jaw will be noticeably more e square and full compared to the female.

Mine started mating a couple of months after I got them.

I don't think so. Last interaction I saw between the 2 was I fed my tank, they both ate, some time later I saw the 2 chasing each other and eventually they wont to either side of the tank with the large one doing all I things I originally stated. When I got them they were in a display tank at the lfs with several other cardinals so I don't know what my chances are that I got a mated pair, and I'm not sure how what a cardinals mouth full of eggs would look but what he looks like now doesn't seem like it, especially with the heavy looking breathing.

 

[Herides]

Here is a 40 second clip of him. Him turning around and swimming away is his usual reaction to me trying to get a closer look. He did this all day yesterday and I predict the same today. I hope y'all can see the breathing and the slightly torn fin. Hope he eats tonight.

 

[Herides]

I've had 3 of these types of fish die on me. One is nearing the finish line of quarentine, its currently completing its PraziPro treatment. When it makes it to my display tank if all works out then it is gonna be challenged to get along with my other 4 fish.

All the best!

We love videos and pictures as im sure your aware. Almost a prerequisit when asking for help IDing or assessing something to do with our tanks.

I posted a video in replies

 

[Herides]

It would be unusual for the smaller fish to be able to cause damage to the larger one, in fish fights the larger one wins. I worry something else could be going on.
Can you see post a short video taken under white light?
Jay

I posted a video in replies

 

[RobertTheNurse]

Breathing looks fast to me. Same thing happened to mine. Im on my 4th Cardinal 3 out of 4 died..hes actually almost completed quarentine.

Have you medicated? Do you have any meds on hand? Sorry did you say the one we are talking about is eating?

 

[Herides]

Breathing looks fast to me. Same thing happened to mine. Im on my 4th Cardinal 3 out of 4 died..hes actually almost completed quarentine.

Have you medicated? Do you have any meds on hand? Sorry did you say the one we are talking about is eating?

I do have metroplex so I may quarantine him and attempt to medicate though knowing my luck it might be fruitless, and no he didn't eat last night.

 

[RobertTheNurse]

You have a quarentine setup? Mine didn't handle copper. Metro seemed to work for me. Unfortunately I don't know what the cause of it is, or if this will help. But best of luck.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here is a 40 second clip of him. Him turning around and swimming away is his usual reaction to me trying to get a closer look. He did this all day yesterday and I predict the same today. I hope y'all can see the breathing and the slightly torn fin. Hope he eats tonight.

Well, the video shows exactly what you were describing, I was hoping I would see some additional clues...
It is breathing heavy, but other than some weird body movements, it has could body mass and color.

It looks like it might be a wild caught one. There is an issue with a virus that these get. Although it won't help your situation, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book on this:

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This disease was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.

Jay

 

[Herides]

Well, the video shows exactly what you were describing, I was hoping I would see some additional clues...
It is breathing heavy, but other than some weird body movements, it has could body mass and color.

It looks like it might be a wild caught one. There is an issue with a virus that these get. Although it won't help your situation, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book on this:

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This disease was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.

Jay

So what your saying is in the event this happens to be a wild caught one, him and his kin just have an issue with high mortality in the modern aquarium trade and there's not a whole lot I can do? I was doomed from the start to put it one way? If so then that's a dang shame.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So what your saying is in the event this happens to be a wild caught one, him and his kin just have an issue with high mortality in the modern aquarium trade and there's not a whole lot I can do? I was doomed from the start to put it one way? If so then that's a dang shame.

I'm not positive that your fish was wild caught, and I can't be certain that is has this virus, but yes, in the case of this species, tank-raised is definitely the way to go. When I saw my first banggai in the mid-90's they were bullet proof. I ended up breeding all that I needed for many years from the original ones I got. Then, I started hearing people having trouble with them and I couldn't understand why things changed, but the virus accounts for that. Evidently, the way this fish is held overseas prior to shipment pretty much ensures all the fish going through the exporter's tanks catch this disease.

Jay

 

[Herides]

I see. I'm not sure as to this ones source, all I know is he came with several other bangais in the same shipment to my lfs, so that means all of them, including the other smaller one I have would have the disease, if they were wild caught. Though based on your previous longer reply, you mentioned that they can "developed immunity by surviving an infection", so I think right now my only real course of action is see what happens and hope he survives.