Banggai acting weird

[Claus84]

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on my banggai cardinals behaviour. Occasionally it goes off its food for a couple of days and spends time hanging around the flow from my return pipe, it shimmys its fins towards the pipe as if trying to dislodge something. This happens maybe once a month for a few days at a time.

Its often accompanied by some minor fin rot which always seems to be restricted to the pectoral fins, other than that there are never any visible signs and symptoms. It has just started doing it again this evening, no marks or spots visible.
I know hanging around the flow from powerheads is a sign of velvet but from what I have read this is a fast killer and it would seem strange that this is a re-curring thing and it never shows any spots (and is still alive!), none of my other fish (flame angel, mandarin, Ocellaris clowns) appear to be affected in any way. In between these bouts the banggai is probably the greediest fish in the tank and is nice and plump.

I did have a recurring bacterial infection a while back so it may be a continuation of that I guess.

Has anyone else experienced this behaviour?

Thanks

Nick

 

[Humblefish]

This isn't part of courting behavior by any chance? The female will shake/vibrate around the male just before spawning. Maybe your female thinks "the pipe" is a male?

 

[Claus84]

This isn't part of courting behavior by any chance? The female will shake/vibrate around the male just before spawning. Maybe your female thinks "the pipe" is a male?

Thanks for the response, I only have a male at the moment, bought 2 tiny juvi's originally and both turned out to be male so one went back to the shop. Its very strange, I'll try to get a video if its still doing it today.

 

[Claus84]

Video linked below. Apologies as its a bit long. Both pectoral fins have not degraded as yet but have what appears to be an opaque covering to them, particularly at the top of the fin. I can just about make this out on the video when the fish turns head on to the camera but it may not be that apparent. The fish also does its return pipe shiver about half way through the vid.


https://youtu.be/hSe6G8rGamU
Thanks

Nick

 

[Claus84]

The pectoral fins look as though they are covered in filaments, almost like cobwebs. I have just read a little on marine fungus, from what I can gather it is quite rare but not unheard of, could this maybe be the issue?

Might be completely unrelated but for a while now I have noticed that when I turn the return pump back on after a water change I get a lot of small filaments floating around the tank, presumably dislodged from the pipework. I wonder if there is something like a fungus growing in the pipework which could be causing these symptoms.

Nick

 

[SandJ]

Do you have any vermetid snails? When stuff is stirred up in my tank, like from a water change, the snails send their webs out. I have seen these webs caught on fish before.

 

[Humblefish]

I see something on the top fin which reminds me of Lympho: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lymphocystis.257461/

But @SandJ's vermetid snail theory is a good one as well. Marine fungus is not unheard of, but it is pretty rare.

 

[GHsaltie]

Would you be able to catch the fish for a freshwater dip? Here’s a thread on how to do it https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

 

[Humblefish]

Would you be able to catch the fish for a freshwater dip? Here’s a thread on how to do it https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

^^ Good idea; just in case it's flukes.

 

[Claus84]

Do you have any vermetid snails? When stuff is stirred up in my tank, like from a water change, the snails send their webs out. I have seen these webs caught on fish before.

If I do I certainly don't have many as I can't recall ever seeing any webs, its not impossible that some may be hiding in the rockwork though. The majority of the marks on the fins have dissapeared this morning and the fish is now eating again as normal which may support that theory, in the past though this has been accompanied by actual degredation of the fins however on this occasion they seem to be intact.

I see something on the top fin which reminds me of Lympho: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lymphocystis.257461/

Do you mean the very tip? I'm pretty sure its part of the fin, its very flat and has always had it. I am pretty sure this fish is carrying lymp however as for several months a while back it had a small fluffy looking growth at the base of one of its pelvic fins, looked like it was begging to be picked off with tweezers (I resisted the urge!), then one day it had just dissapeared. Does lympho have the potential to degrade the fins and cause the fish to swim into the flow like that?

Would you be able to catch the fish for a freshwater dip? Here’s a thread on how to do it https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

He's usually fairly easy to trap (particularly when its not him I'm after!) so I will probably do this just to be on the safe side but i'm fairly confident my tank is fluke free, I thought my coral beauty had them a while back, fw dipped and prazipro in QT on all livestock and no flukes were evident at all. Hopefully thats still the case!

Cheers

Nick

 

[Humblefish]

Does lympho have the potential to degrade the fins and cause the fish to swim into the flow like that?

It can sometimes. Depends how long the nodule is there before falling off, or if a cleaner shrimp/wrasse isn't gentle about tearing/eating it off.

 

[Claus84]

It can sometimes. Depends how long the nodule is there before falling off, or if a cleaner shrimp/wrasse isn't gentle about tearing/eating it off.

Thanks, hopefully its just lympho then, i'll dip him just to double check flukes etc and keep an eye on him

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated

Nick

 

[Claus84]

@Humblefish - Hoping you can advise once again. The lumps on my banggai are back and its off its food again, there are quite a few at the base of the pelvic fins and on the body between them, they perfectly match the description of lymph but I have not had chance to catch him yet to dip and rule other things out, hoping to do so at the weekend. Strange that this seems to be approx a monthly occurence, I have noticed some bickering with my flame angel and my nitrates did creep up recently so stress may be a factor I guess.

My mandarin is also exhibiting a couple of the filament-like marks on one of its pectoral fins and I've managed to get a brief video of it, linked below it stays still for a couple of seconds around 25secs in. I suspect it may be bacterial but hopefully this vid may help to ID.

Thanks in advance!

 

[DeepBlueSomething]

Just out of curiosity... do you have any other maintenance or dosing activities that have a similar frequency? WC, socks, dosing, etc? The monthly cycle is strange, but might very well give us another clue.

 

[Claus84]

Just out of curiosity... do you have any other maintenance or dosing activities that have a similar frequency? WC, socks, dosing, etc? The monthly cycle is strange, but might very well give us another clue.

Hmm not that I can think of but I have outlined my routine and pretty much everything else I can think of that may be a factor. Most of this is probably irrelevant but you never know!

I clean the skimmer and filter sock daily and until 2 weeks ago was performing 100l water changes each week (system volume is around 350l) but I have now backed down to 75l. I skipped a weekly wc at the end of Nov as I was working away, came back and a few of my trochus were looking lethargic and I have lost a few, may be unrelated to the fish issue, possibly some toxic algae that I haven't noticed yet which may have capitalised on the increased nutrients from the missed wc (really hoping not dinos!).

My nitrates were getting relatively high around 3 weeks ago (up to aroud 30ppm) so 1.5 weeks ago I started dosing NoPox, at rate of 3ml daily which combined with water changes has brought them back down. I was very hesitant to re-start the NoPox as I'm pretty sure this fuelled a faily aggressive bacterial infection I had a while back. At the time I stopped dosing, added a UV and it eventually went away, then within 24 hours of re-starting the mandarin had aggressive fin rot (rotted its dorsal down to the fin ray, thankfully now grown back) so I am almost certain the NoPox exacerbated the issue. I guess its possible the small amount I have started adding again has contributed to this recent problem but I am pretty sure I have seen this on the mandarin before when not dosing NoPox.

Other then the NoPox I don't dose anything apart from adding sodium bicarb to my top-up water to help keep the alk stable.

I tend to overfeed to keep the mandarin happy, usually 2-3 cubes of enriched brine/mysis and some flake spread out over a few hours, hence the routinely large wc's. Livestock consists of 2xcommon clowns, 1xbanggai, 1x flame angel, 1 x mandarin plus various softies, shrimp, urchins etc. I am about to start QT on a kole tang and an orchid dottyback which will be the last additions to the tank.

Thanks

Nick

 

[Humblefish]

If it is Lympho, it would make sense to continue seeing symptoms month after month. The virus that causes the white nodules lives inside the fish's body, and flare ups usually only occur when the fish is stressed or it's immune system is otherwise compromised. The virus is transmitted via direct contact. Very similar behavior to HSV-2 in humans.

Have you tried soaking the fish food with vitamins on a daily basis to boost their immune system? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vitamins-herbal-remedies.304287/

 

[Paul B]

I can't tell anything from those video's as they are to far away. But to answer your question, Bangai's do stop eating for a while. Mine stopped for 3 weeks a couple of times. I just lost two that died from old age, their lifespan is only 3 or 4 years, which is weird for a fish that size, but thats it.
My Buddy Humble can advise you on whatever disease you feel he has.

 

[Claus84]

If it is Lympho, it would make sense to continue seeing symptoms month after month. The virus that causes the white nodules lives inside the fish's body, and flare ups usually only occur when the fish is stressed or it's immune system is otherwise compromised. The virus is transmitted via direct contact. Very similar behavior to HSV-2 in humans.

Have you tried soaking the fish food with vitamins on a daily basis to boost their immune system? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vitamins-herbal-remedies.304287/

The trap is set, hopefully going to catch the banggai tomorrow.

I enrich any frozen food I feed with Brightwell Vitmarin-M daily and occasionally add Aminomega to the mix too.

So today that mark on the mandarins fin has turned into a hole! Almost perfectly square in the centre of the fin right where the mark was! It looks like it has been eaten away, there is no other damage to the mandarins fins, they are not frayed in any way the damage is restriced to the area that the mark was on yesterday, seems very bizarre.

The banggai almost certainly has lympho but there is also something else going on with the fins which has me completely stumped.

Thanks

Nick