Discussion in 'Boom Corals' started by BoomCorals, Sep 3, 2017.

Bayer VS The Dreaded Acropora Eating Flatworm

For those who are unaware, there is an alternative dipping method out there using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for Turf and Soil...
  1. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    For those who are unaware, there is an alternative dipping method out there that others recommend* using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for Turf and Soil Concentrate. It has been heralded as a more gentle alternative to things like Revive and Coral RX, yet just as effective. I myself have used this in combination with Coral RX at times. (not in the same container but one after the other) But to date I have not had any coral come in with AEFW so I have been unable to truly test it myself. There are several threads out there where some have done a bit of testing, and just as many more telling you methods on how to use it.


    This weekend that all changed. I had someone contact me locally that said he found bite marks on one of his coral. If you haven't seen AEFW bite marks, here is an image from another thread here on R2R. It looks pretty much just as you'd expect. Like someone is making an acropora sandwich from the skin of your beloved coral.


    I went to his house, Bayer in hand, and took a look at the coral. Fortunately for him it was in his QT tank. He generally follows the advice to QT a coral after it arrives, then 1 week later do the dip. This is actually what I would recommend as well. When a coral arrives to you from being shipped it is already stressed. Dipping it can be a double whammy for the coral. The only time I make exception to this is if I already have something in QT. But there really is no wrong or right way so long as you follow a strict QT process.

    Sure enough there were bite marks, and I could see at least 5 AEFW upon closer inspection. We put the coral into a container with tank water and blasted it. It turned up 6 AEFW at the bottom of the container. It should be noted that not all AEFW can be so easily removed, depending on how far they have their mouths dug into the coral, simply blasting will not remove them.

    Another pic of AEFW:


    He decided to toss the coral to be safe, which isn't a bad way to go as you never know what eggs you might not see inside way up under the skeleton of the coral. In addition, when they do hatch, they can go up inside and burrow into the skeleton of the coral, burying themselves in such a way that they may be immune to dips until they are too large to remain inside the coral skeleton. In other words:


    Anyways, on to the test! I did 3 different doses of Bayer in this test. Each used 1/2 cup of water and had two of the AEFW. I added 5ml, 10ml, and 15ml to the 3 different containers. It was then stirred and let to sit with occasional stirring for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes, we dumped the container onto a mesh to catch the AEFW and we then put them into normal tank water again to see what happened. Here are the results!

    The 5ml container - after the 10 minutes the AEFW were still alive! They seemed pretty agitated but after 30 minutes of sitting in the salt water they were fairly normal looking again. So, 5ml per 1/2 cup is NOT enough in my opinion.

    The 10ml container - this is the "standard" dose that I have seen mentioned in many threads. After 10 minutes the AEFW were put back into tank water and we thought it had done the trick. They weren't moving and looked dead as a door nail. But, this was NOT the case! After about 15 minutes they began to move again. This honestly surprised me. I had heard of someone else seeing this happen as well, but seeing it myself was still a bit unnerving. After another 15 minutes they seemed to be fairly normal, albeit still a bit agitated. So, to me, 10ml per 1/2 cup is NOT enough!

    The 15ml container - after 10 minutes in the milky bath of Bayer, these AEFW never moved again. We left them in the container for 60 minutes to be sure, and not a single sign of life. This seems to do the trick with the AEFW. Dead - just the way we want it.

    *disclaimer - I am not recommending the use of Bayer for anything other than was intended. This was simply an informational experiment!
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
    PatW, bubbaque, satteber and 17 others like this.
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  2. Antics

    Antics Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Nice information. Hopefully going forward other with experience can offer their input!
     
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  3. ksemar

    ksemar Member

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    Will this also kill any aiptasia that hitchhikes on a coral frag? I had a tiny one that caused an outbreak. Never had it before.
     
  4. redfishbluefish

    redfishbluefish Stay Positive, Stay Productive Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor NJRC Member

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    Great start to actual data about using Bayer.....thank you for sharing. I've been using it for a couple years, but at a dose of 1 ml Bayer per 100 mls of tank water....but typically dipping for 15-plus minutes. Just for perspective, a 1/2 cup that you used is about 120 mls.

    I'd now be curious about length of dip time per some dose. I would think that lower doses (below your 15 ml dose per half cup) could be effect by using longer dipping times.

    Great info!
     
  5. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    Not that I've seen.
     
  6. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    I can tell you that 1ml per 1/2 cup won't even tickle a flatworm even after 30 minutes.
     
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  7. vanpire

    vanpire Active Member

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    Thanx for the test and it is great news that 15-20mL would do the trick. Usually, I use about 25% Bayer and 75% water. From my experience, corals seem unaffected by the Bayer, regardless of dosage.
     
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  8. Braves Fan

    Braves Fan Valuable Member

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    I like the fact,,, that a vendor who I have never bought from,,, who I have a coral order placed with,,, puts up a post on how to use Bayer as a coral dip,,,
     
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  9. revhtree

    revhtree Owner Administrator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks for sharing this!
     
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  10. Cnidoblast

    Cnidoblast Active Member

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    It is imporant to note that Imidacloprid is extremely hard to get in some parts of the world (IIRC the E.U banned it)

    I wonder if prazipro will kill the worms?
     
  11. jjoos99

    jjoos99 Active Member

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    Here is what I am starting to experiment with. Microbe-lift herbtana. It is used for treating fish parasites including flukes. It is suppose to be fully reef safe. What I have done so far is taken some aefw that I collected from an infected coral and placed them in a bucket. The treatment on the label is done by adding daily doses for 10 days. I added the herbtana to the bucket in the recommended dosage for the first day and it didnt seem to do anything. I added the dosage on the second day and by the third day they were dead and dissolved. I collected some yesterday and did the same but overdosed the amount and within 30-60 minutes they were dead and dissolved. So herbtana clearly kills aefw. I have a 10 gallon tank currently running with several different types of sps frags and one torch lps. One of the corals is a dead skeleton with eggs. I added the first days dosage today. I am basically wanting to see how the corals will react. I will try and collect some worms from my display tank in a day or two to introduce into the 10 gallon tank. I will try the daily doses for the 10 days and see how the corals are effected. The trick might be trying to figure the right amount to kill off the worms and not effect the corals. I have read in another thread that herbtana had no negative effect on their corals and inverts while treating their fish in their display tank. Havent found much that has been done with aefw yet involving aefw but with hope this reef safe product might save a lot of tanks.
    Jeff
     
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  12. salty joe

    salty joe Active Member

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    It seems like a given that any coral with AEFW will have eggs. I suppose how long the eggs take to hatch is anybody's guess...
     
  13. Outdrsyguy1

    Outdrsyguy1 Active Member

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    Awesome info guys. Following to see where this goes.
     
  14. rockstarta78

    rockstarta78 Well-Known Member

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    I have always used Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for Turf and Soil to dip my corals. But sadly both Lowes and Home Depot near me has stopped carrying them. Anyone know if this has been discontinued? or if there's a new label/brand? I need to find this as this has been the best dip that has worked for me.
     
  15. Kayvon

    Kayvon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I got mine off of Amazon. It's still on there.
     
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  16. Bob E

    Bob E Active Member Partner Member 2019 Partner Member 2018

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    Great test. Data love it
     
  17. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    I just got more at my local home depot. Might be in a different area/outside?
     
  18. rockstarta78

    rockstarta78 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. When I do a search on amazon, I get this. Is it the same one? The bottle doesn't look like the one that I used to have.
     
  19. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    That is exactly the one.
     
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  20. erk

    erk Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    The active ingredients in Bayer Insect Killer Soil and Turf is Imidacloprid and Beta-Cyfluthrin. Which of these is the ingredient that is having the effect? I use Bayer Home Advanced for treating my orchids and it has one active ingredient, Beta-Cyfluthrin. It is a very potent insecticide that is extremely deadly for invertebrates and fish. If Cyfluthrin is the ingredient that is affecting the flatworms, I'd recommend going with Bayer Home Advance and avoid the neonicotinoid, Imidacloprid. Best to reduce how much of this stuff gets into the local water supply.
     
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