Discussion in 'Boom Corals' started by BoomCorals, Sep 3, 2017.

Bayer VS The Dreaded Acropora Eating Flatworm

For those who are unaware, there is an alternative dipping method out there using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for Turf and Soil...
  1. I'm a natural blue

    I'm a natural blue Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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  2. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    From what I have read, Bayer Home Advanced will not work.
     
  3. erk

    erk Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    That would imply that Imidacloprid is the ingredient that is causing the reaction. If so, there are options with just Imidacloprid as the active ingredient in much higher concentrations. I listed one below.

    21.4% Imidacloprid concentration insecticide. Would require far less to reach the same concentration:
    http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/m...i_ym8QtyRzY26w5mFAtGl2UJiSkC6iORoCDDgQAvD_BwE

    Wikipedia article on Imidacloprid incase anyone is interested:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid
     
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  4. erk

    erk Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I would also like to say, we should be wary about using something like Imidacloprid, a neonicotinoid. Research has shown the effects of neonicotinoids are not fully known and are far greater on wildlife than we originally thought. I would recommend disposing of the liquid in a way that doesn't contaminate the local water supply. Best to reduce our combined impact on local wildlife and the water we drink. I would also say,be wary about using this stuff in your soil. If flowering plants uptake the neonicotinoid, it can poison pollinators.

    From below wiki:
    "Although imidacloprid breaks down rapidly in water in the presence of light, it remains persistent in water in the absence of light. It has a water solubility of .61 g/L, which is relatively high.[22] In the dark, at pH between 5 and 7, it breaks down very slowly, and at pH 9, the half-life is about 1 year. In soil under aerobic conditions, imidacloprid is persistent with a half-life of the order of 1–3 years. On the soil surface the half-life is 39 days."

    With this info, it would be best to dispose the contaminated water into a clear jar and let the light break it down. Half life is 1-4 hours in water when exposed to light. So, 24 hours should be enough before disposing down the drain. Maybe longer if you are worried.

    For reference:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid#Bees
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  5. wangspeed

    wangspeed Active Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Good to know about how it breaks down. I used to dump it, but I'll just put it in one of those carry out soup containers and let it sit outside for a day.
     
  6. CindyKz

    CindyKz Well-Known Member

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    @BoomCorals, Awesome test thank you! I've never measured, just eyeballed the amount. It is nice to have some actual numbers to go with my "milk".
     
  7. happyhourhero

    happyhourhero Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I always just make the dip water look about like skim milk. Seems to do the trick and not bother corals at all.
     
  8. Holy_makerel

    Holy_makerel Active Member

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    Great info, thank you for sharing!

    @BoomCorals thank you for the info as well! I've beem weary about using bayer just because concentration info was not well explained
     
  9. ycnibrc

    ycnibrc STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF R2R Supporter SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    When dipping I just need the aefw to dislogde from the coral since u will discard the water to the sink anyway so usually my formula is 4oz water 10ml for 10min.
     
  10. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    That only works on the ones that dislodge though. :)
     
  11. ycnibrc

    ycnibrc STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF R2R Supporter SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    well I don't buy colony but with frag after 10min no flatworm stay on the frag so far.
     
  12. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

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    Baby flatworms are generally invisible to the naked eye and burrow up under the skeleton, which is why a QT is recommended anyways. Always something to keep in mind! :)
     
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  13. Cnidoblast

    Cnidoblast Active Member

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    We need somebody to test Cyfluthrin V.S Imidacloprid V.S Praziquantel
     
  14. Saltwaterwannabe

    Saltwaterwannabe Member

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    I have been using bayer advanced complete for 2 years, closely inspecting before and after with qt length depending on what I know of where I got the coral. The only coral I lost were from combining other poorly applied techniques in conjunction with the bayer dip....which was a learning experience

    I always make the water milky based on recomendation of a fellow reefer and will surely start measuring now.

    This is great info, keep up the great thread!
     
  15. justin.k.nelson

    justin.k.nelson Active Member

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    I have found from personal experience that a pretty robust schedule to get not only the adults but also any newly hatched worms. When I had them, I would do the following:

    Dip every other day for the first week
    Dip every other day for the next 2 weeks
    Dip twice a week for 2 weeks
    Dip 1x a week for 2 weeks
    Observe corals for 2 weeks + before going back into DT
    I do a long process mainly to let my DT go fallow for as long as possible ( 2 months) to allow any worms that dislodged and free in the DT to die without a host to feed them. Doing this, I was able to finally beat the pests. When I did something shorter, I would always find more of them. After this long process, I haven't seen a sign of them since.

    Now I QT for at least 2 weeks in a QT/ Grow out tank before going into my DT to avoid repeating this drama again.
     
  16. Cnidoblast

    Cnidoblast Active Member

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    I'd be curious if Pyrantel (a common dog dewormer) would work as it chemically similar to Imidacloprid but is not affected by the neonic ban someplaces have!

    The chemical stuctures side by side: (you can think of pyrantel as imdicloprid but "flipped" )

    pp_aefw.png
     
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  17. FunkEngine

    FunkEngine Member

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    It would be very difficult to actually determine without knowing the exact mechanism that both drugs use. Even incredibly small molecular differences can have enormous impact on its effect as a pharmaceutical.
     
  18. Cnidoblast

    Cnidoblast Active Member

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    Bolth drugs are nicotine mimics
     
  19. Reef Monkie

    Reef Monkie Active Member

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    It also contains cyfluthrin which is a pyrethroid insecticide which is highly toxic to fish (possibly at concentrations as low as 4 parts per trillion), invertebrates, and cats (cats can not break down pyrethroids in the way other mammals can), as well as being absorbed by our skin, when absorbed through the skin it has been found to be excreted via breast milk. It is worthwhile thinking carefully before using these types of chemicals or disposing of them, and it is probably a good idea to wear the proper protection, like gloves.
     
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  20. five.five-six

    five.five-six Active Member SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Several highly respected coral farmers post dipping and QT protocol suggestion on their websites. It's related to herd immunity and the more of the herd of reefers that stop pests, the better we all are.
     
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