Bellus Angel issues. Uronema or swim bladder?

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I purchased a Bellus angel from a LFS on Thanksgiving day. I made sure the fish was eating in the store (and it did very well.)

At home it ate the first day - especially live black worms, but later that day and ever since, it hasn’t eaten.

The fish would look like it’s bouncing up and down from the surface of the water.

I already dosed prazipro and metro (higher dosed) this morning. I put extra metro because I had a gut feeling it was uronema. When I came home from work I saw no improvements in the way the fish swam. I decided to do a gill scrape and uronema was found, although a mild case in the gills, but I think it would be higher in a different spot?

I decided to do a formalin bath treatment in hopes to knock back some uronema until the metro will take affect. I didn’t understand why this fish was bouncing and trying to breathe dry air. I have a lot of aeration and parameters were perfect.

The fish handled the bath treatment ok. It stayed near the surface of the water while my other angel was on the bottom. I put 3.2ml of formeldahyde 37% in 5 gallons of freshly made RODI saltwater. Aerating very very very vigorously. I placed the fish in the bath for 1 hour.

Back in the tank the fish was still floating around and breathing VERY heavily. Then after a few minutes it looked dead on the tank bottom. I thought it was dead and tried to remove it but it sprung back alive and kept swimming and bouncing near the surface and spitting water out of its mouth like a whale with a blowhole.

I left for 2/3 hours and came back to the fish sitting on the bottom. It looks like this has more life to it than before. The gills look slightly red and inflamed. I personally don’t think it’s going to make it by tomorrow, but there’s a part of me that thinks it will. I’m like 90% sure it will be dead when I wake.

Why is the fish breathing so weird? Why is he bouncing up and down when he swims? At this point, I think this fish is a goner, but I would at least like to understand what went wrong and if it was preventable in any way?

I purchased this fish yesterday.

2007FA59-CDFB-482B-A82F-0F57113D2B14.jpeg
 

DrZoidburg

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
1,588
Reaction score
1,083
Location
Near Lake George
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
gill scrape
How did you analyze this? Also consider a few things. Maybe fish sensitive to these meds, or combination. How are you actually measuring how much you dosed? Did you check lfs salinity, are you checking for other parameters? New fish stress with any of the others. Sometimes new fish can go a couple days without food. Are your treating for copper, as well as meds or just meds? Then hit it with a 1 hr formaldehyde bath? It could be a case of too much happening all at once. It is good to wait at least a couple days before doing anything.
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
How did you analyze this? Also consider a few things. Maybe fish sensitive to these meds, or combination. How are you actually measuring how much you dosed? Did you check lfs salinity, are you checking for other parameters? New fish stress with any of the others. Sometimes new fish can go a couple days without food. Are your treating for copper, as well as meds or just meds? Then hit it with a 1 hr formaldehyde bath? It could be a case of too much happening all at once. It is good to wait at least a couple days before doing anything.
1. Gill scrape with microscope

2. Yes, I measure all meds. Prazipro 2ppm ; metro 40mg/gallon.

3. Yes, I checked LFS salinity and did a quick acclimation. Fish was 1.026 and went into 1.022 after acclimation.

4. No copper.

I noticed this fish became critical condition rapidly. I’ve read horror stories about uronema and I think this fish was too far gone. I’ve read once they had marks it’s too late…
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ps. I did not even notice those marks. It was very pale and unnoticeable in the shop. The fish ate well and even ate the same day at home.
 

DrZoidburg

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
1,588
Reaction score
1,083
Location
Near Lake George
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I couldn't see what you saw on a slide how sure? A lot of things can look like it. Was the bacteria density high? Having a hard time seeing marks. Except maybe something above the blue line. A video could help also. If it was something swim bladder would sometimes notice it fighting to stay like it is in this picture. Plus has no bloated look. My first thought is really mixing the meds. Should wait a day or 2 before mixing anything if you don't know if it will react. These can get inside fish system and react internally. Even over 24 hours later. Just guessing the other angel did not get a formaldehyde bath? Did you run same treatment for other, is it a different species?
 

Reefahholic

Acropora Farmer
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
7,425
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Houston, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sounds almost like Velvet to me. Red gills, up at the surface gasping for air, rapid breathing, etc. Can you make a new batch of saltwater and drop him is 2.0 ppm Copper Power as a last resort?
 

Reefahholic

Acropora Farmer
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
7,425
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Houston, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If he makes it overnight I’d slowly raise it to 2.5 ppm in the next few days, and see how he does. Really nothing to loose at this point from the way it sounds. Either he’s going to get relief (parasites fall off from therapeutic copper) and live or be stuck to the filter intake by morning. Doesn’t sound like you have much time.
 

fisheriesdoc

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
36
Reaction score
28
Location
Baton Rouge
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The floating issues and rapid up and down movements sound like barotrauma, which can be an issue for deeper water fishes. I used to collect fishes while diving and there would sometimes be issues with barotrauma that manifested weeks later after the initial symptoms subsided. I assumed those were secondary bacterial infections, but I am really not sure. However, that wouldn’t explain the fish resting on the bottom.
 

DrZoidburg

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
1,588
Reaction score
1,083
Location
Near Lake George
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I don't think throwing more stressful chemicals at it would help.
The floating issues and rapid up and down movements sound like barotrauma, which can be an issue for deeper water fishes. I used to collect fishes while diving and there would sometimes be issues with barotrauma that manifested weeks later after the initial symptoms subsided. I assumed those were secondary bacterial infections, but I am really not sure. However, that wouldn’t explain the fish resting on the bottom.
If this they will float, or have a hard time swimming back down correct? Whenever I've caught deep sea fish it was either squeeze their air bladder, or poke a hole in it. Usually anything over 40 ft deep if came to surface too fast. Odd things would happen weeks later. What kind of issues?
 

Smite

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
2,749
Reaction score
4,030
Location
Garden Grove
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So did you dose prazi back to back? Just curious because of the higher this morning part.

I’ve had fish gulp like this during prazipro and antibiotics. When I dose prazi I no longer rely on heavy surface agitation alone. I add an air stone and drop it just below my small power head in the tank. I feel like that helps a ton during prazipro treatment. It makes a bit of a salt creep mess but my success with fish that are supposed to be more sensitive to it has been much higher.
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have personal experience with copper power. I dosed it in my DT with shrimps, snails, crabs and none died. I obviously removed all my inverts that I could, but I had to dose it because I had an ich outbreak. There were no corals except for a GSP which stayed alive for a week. Copper tested twice a day and never dropped below 2.3ppm.

I came to the conclusion that copper power is extremely gentle.
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I transferred the fish to a separate stable QT tank and the fish is behaving much better. Not floating nor gasping for air.

I have hope that the fish will pull through, but we’ll see.

Copper is therapeutic - take no chances with velvet.
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,285
Reaction score
25,184
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I transferred the fish to a separate stable QT tank and the fish is behaving much better. Not floating nor gasping for air.

I have hope that the fish will pull through, but we’ll see.

Copper is therapeutic - take no chances with velvet.

Sorry - just waking up and I missed all the action.

Tough to say if the "bouncing" was from barotrauma (unlikely to resolve quickly) or from "piping" which is a response to stress. My guess would be the latter since it was also spitting water and it went away.

The formalin bath you gave is considered the highest dose for tropical fish - about 166 ppm. Formalin is dosed on a sliding scale for temperature, concentration and time. I try to use lower doses for shorter time frames. If I do use full dose, I go with 30 to 45 minutes.

So you definitively saw protozoans in the gills? They were ciliates, not dinoflagellates (velvet)?

For what it's worth - I won't buy bellus angels any more, they always do poorly for me. I strongly suspect that they are collected with cyanide and then "needled" to get them to the surface. Divers in the Philippines just can't spend the time at depth to collect these properly - they just dive down, juice them, needle them and go.....if you can get one from further east in the Pacific, Palau, Guam or Tonga, they might do better.

Jay
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It looked like uronema because it was fast like a race car, but i will admit my experience with microscoping parasites is VERY short and limited.

The angel is swimming much better than before. However, it appears like it’s (paddling?) with both fins simultaneously. Besides for that, the fish is eating and breathing well. Fish is not below water surface, and not breathing dry air. Looks like a completely normal fish.
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,285
Reaction score
25,184
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It looked like uronema because it was fast like a race car, but i will admit my experience with microscoping parasites is VERY short and limited.

The angel is swimming much better than before. However, it appears like it’s (paddling?) with both fins simultaneously. Besides for that, the fish is eating and breathing well. Fish is not below water surface, and not breathing dry air. Looks like a completely normal fish.
Uronema is more a slow/tumbling ciliate. Amyloodinium isn't going to move fast either. Not sure what you saw though, if it was from a fresh gill clip, it is unlikely to be a incidental finding. I often see fast motile ciliates on dead fish recovered from tanks 4+ hours after death, but they are scavengers.

Did you see lots of them or just one or two? Did you take an actual gill clip?

Jay
 
OP
OP
Miami Reef

Miami Reef

Clam Fanatic
View Badges
Joined
Sep 8, 2017
Messages
11,165
Reaction score
20,734
Location
Miami Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Uronema is more a slow/tumbling ciliate. Amyloodinium isn't going to move fast either. Not sure what you saw though, if it was from a fresh gill clip, it is unlikely to be a incidental finding. I often see fast motile ciliates on dead fish recovered from tanks 4+ hours after death, but they are scavengers.

Did you see lots of them or just one or two? Did you take an actual gill clip?

Jay
I scraped around the gill area. I only saw one of the “parasites”.

The video was posted. Look up one or 2 posts.
 
Back
Top