Beware of Vinegar - The Pump Killer

redfishbluefish · May 4, 2023

andyman said:
Let me get this straight, you are puzzled and don't think vinegar caused your 2 MP40 wet sides to fail. You start with saying you don't believe you ever used vinegar. Then your very next sentence you say you may have cleaned with vinegar a couple times. Not sure anyone can help you on this one.

I most certainly left the window open, but simply wanted to fully disclose that I might have dipped these a couple times back in 2016 when I was "discovering" the vinegar theory. Once the light bulb went off in my head, it was citric acid only. And, if I did do this, it was way back in 2016. It would have had to "fester" for years to cause this swell and split. It is possible, but I'm leaning more towards product issues now.verses festering vinegar.

MnFish1 · May 4, 2023

redfishbluefish said:
I have posted bits and piece of my vinegar story over the past three years, and I thought it would be beneficial if one post contained all that I've learn. You'll be surprised! This story will contain three parts; my history with vinegar, the cause and simplified chemistry what's happening; and the solution to cleaning your pumps without fear of swelling magnets.

MY STORY

I've been using MP's for many years, and as a good boy, cleaned the wetsides in vinegar (aka, acetic acid) to make them look good and function correctly. I had a very simple way of doing this by immersing the entire wetside in straight vinegar over night and then rinsing and putting back into service.

If anyone is interested, this small plastic container that perfectly fits an MP40 wetside is a one pint talenti ice cream (gelato) container....an overpriced ice cream my wife enjoys....too many times!

About three and a half years ago I found one of my MP40 wetsides slowly spinning. To be crystal clear, the entire wetside...cage and all, was spinning. When I pulled it out I found the magnet had swelled and was binding to the body of the powerhead, causing the entire thing to spin.

I wasn't a happy camper, but over the next couple months, two more were found with swollen magnets (plastic case either swollen and/or cracked), and now also not functioning.

Now this isn't just an MP thing. In retrospect, I had four Koralia Evolution powerheads before switching over to MP's. All four were dead in the water within a year of purchasing new. Two with obvious swollen magnetic portions of the impeller shaft, and two that I couldn't even get the impellers out of the body of the powerhead because they were swollen and stuck within the body. Note that these powerheads were also regularly cleaned in vinegar.

So I have a confession...."Bless me Father for I have sinned"....my wife didn't know what I paid for all the MP's I have...and now I need to go out and drop another $225 for three wetsides. I wasn't happy!!! Note, if I die, my wife will be selling MP40's for about $20 - $25, half of what I supposedly paid.

To finish this story, I later had three MP10's do the same thing. My wife will be selling these for $15 - $20 a piece. Now I know, with six MP's with new wetsides, you're all waiting for me to die!

WHY IMPLICATE VINEGAR

So I was puzzled why my overpriced MP's crapped out, and about six months after loosing my first MP, I came across a post by @Randy Holmes-Farley in which he posted:

"I think the effect on plastic may be worse with vinegar than muriatic acid but it may depend on the plastic.

Vinegar can be in the form of acetic acid and that neutral molecule can enter plastic. Diluted muriatic acid won't have any neutral acidic molecules in it to enter plastic, so just exposes the outermost leading edge of plastic. So while the muriatic acid after dilution is a much stronger acid, i would not assume it is worse on plastics."

This made perfect sense! To clarify, charged molecules won't penetrate plastic, but neutral small molecules will. I will repeat that saying it differently....ionic molecules will react at the surface while small neutral molecules will potentially penetrate that material.

If we look at acids in aqueous solution, they dissociate into ions, which is commonly shown as:

HA(aq) + H2O(l) ⇌ H3O+(aq) + A−(aq)

where HA is the acid. Note that the left side is "neutral" while the right side of the reaction contains "charged" molecules (ions). Specifically, for acetic acid (vinegar), this dissocation looks like this:

CH3COOH + H20 ⇌ H3O+ + CH3COO-

Now here's the kicker....some acids dissociate easily and readily while others dissociate very poorly. In the case of acetic acid, it dissociates very poorly, with the majority still in the neutral CH3COOH configuration. To repeat what I said above, charged ions do not penetrate, while small neutral molecules can.

So what is happening when you clean your parts in vinegar, is that it being neutral, has the abililty to penetrate the plastic and, if within the plastic is metal, cause it to oxidize (rust), and swell. Now this doesn't happen over night, or by one cleaning, but happens over time....months, maybe years, but it will happen. In addition, the type of plastic could impact how quickly (or slowly) the acid penetrates.

Don't get me wrong, vinegar is still great for cleaning tanks and pure plastic parts, but I'd avoid it with metal parts encased in plastic (impellers and pumps.) If the cages alone need to be cleaned of coraline, I'd still consider cages only to be soaked in vinegar. But plastic encased magnets...NO, NO, NO!

IF I CAN'T USE VINEGAR, WHAT AM I TO DO

So what can you use to clean your powerheads and pumps that won't potentially cause the magnets to rust and swell and ruin your pumps? We need to find acids that dissociate completely and/or are too large to penetrate the plastic.

Well there just happens to be two readily available acids available that are reasonably price, and in my opinion, with one, clean better (faster) than vinegar. These two acids are Muriatic Acid and Citric Acid.

Muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric acid) is available at HD and pool stores (and I'm sure other places as well.) One note with muriatic acid, it is hydrochloric acid and needs to be handled with care. It will burn you, cause for holes in your cloths, and is dangerous. So wear rubber gloves, eye protection and be careful.

For cleaning tank parts, I'd recommend dilution 1 to 10. Even at this dilution, it will clean pumps and whatever, much faster than vinegar. You'll actually see the calcification fizz off the equipment.

The other acid that is pump safe is citric acid. You can find five pounds on ebay for a reasonable amount of money....a life time supply. Here you want to dilute about 1 cup to a gallon of water. Throw your pumps into this solution and allow to sit over night and you should find a cleaned pump

CONCLUSION

Vinegar, being a neutral acid, will penetrate plastics. If metal is encased in this plastic, it will find it's way and cause that metal to rust and swell. To avoid this, use other acids, such as muriatic acid or citratic acid to clean your pumps...and have them last forever!

I wonder if it's the concentration - as compared to the acid itself

MnFish1 · May 4, 2023

IN any case, I think the title of your post - 'vinegar, the pump-killer' is overstated.

SteveMM62Reef · May 5, 2023

How long do you think the Wet Side should have lasted? From your post I’m looking at Seven Years. That’s 61,320 hours of run time. Don’t know of any small home appliances that would last to that many hours, and they aren’t even submersed in Saltwater.

redfishbluefish · May 5, 2023

I wouldn't expect a failure like I've seen... now seven wetsides. This kind of failure shouldn't happen....ever. I think it's a design/material flaw that shouldn't happen. And your question about other "appliances".....I have MAG pumps that have lasted decades. I'll also note that I have no problem with mechanical or electrical failures. I've replaced bearing on the drysides in a number of my Vortech pumps, and actually all but one of the power supplies have been replaced on my MP40's....that's expected and not a problem. But an encased magnet failing....shouldn't happen.

Reefkeeper14 · May 6, 2023

I am a little confused by your quote below. I am not knowledgeable in chemistry, and I don't understand why a neutral molecule is necessarily smaller than a charged ionic molecule. Could you help me understand why this is the case

"This made perfect sense! To clarify, charged molecules won't penetrate plastic, but neutral small molecules will. I will repeat that saying it differently....ionic molecules will react at the surface while small neutral molecules will potentially penetrate that material."

redfishbluefish · May 7, 2023

Reefkeeper14 said:
I am a little confused by your quote below. I am not knowledgeable in chemistry, and I don't understand why a neutral molecule is necessarily smaller than a charged ionic molecule. Could you help me understand why this is the case

"This made perfect sense! To clarify, charged molecules won't penetrate plastic, but neutral small molecules will. I will repeat that saying it differently....ionic molecules will react at the surface while small neutral molecules will potentially penetrate that material."

Let me further explain. If something has a charge (ionic), either positive or negative, it is looking to "neutralize", or satisfy that charge by finding another charged compound with the opposite charge...a covalent bond. These happen quickly, and now results in a neutral compound that is bound. So if this charged ion is floating around in the proximity of the plastic surface, before it has a chance to penetrate the surface, it will bond to the surface and now be stuck there. If this compound in not ionic, that is, does not have a charge...it is neutral..., and is small enough to fit in and around the structure of the interacting plastic, it can now penetrate that plastic. Think of a crowded room with a highly extroverted person who is now easily moving around that packed room without any problems....can go from one side of the room to the other without issue. While the introvert is"stuck" up against the wall and is unable to move. Extrovert = neutral compound; introvert = charged ionic compound. Hope this helps.

Reefkeeper14 · May 7, 2023

redfishbluefish said:
Let me further explain. If something has a charge (ionic), either positive or negative, it is looking to "neutralize", or satisfy that charge by finding another charged compound with the opposite charge...a covalent bond. These happen quickly, and now results in a neutral compound that is bound. So if this charged ion is floating around in the proximity of the plastic surface, before it has a chance to penetrate the surface, it will bond to the surface and now be stuck there. If this compound in not ionic, that is, does not have a charge...it is neutral..., and is small enough to fit in and around the structure of the interacting plastic, it can now penetrate that plastic. Think of a crowded room with a highly extroverted person who is now easily moving around that packed room without any problems....can go from one side of the room to the other without issue. While the introvert is"stuck" up against the wall and is unable to move. Extrovert = neutral compound; introvert = charged ionic compound. Hope this helps.

Wonderful explanation thanks for the clarification!

Sleepydoc · May 7, 2023

I'll say that I've switched to citric acid an in general I like it much better than vinegar anyway.

It's possible your original hypothesis was wrong. It's also possible there some bad units that would have failed regardless. It's also possible that the materials or manufacturing processes have changed. It's possible that there was slight damage that festered for several years. *shrug*

GarrettT · May 8, 2023

Easy fix. Notice the one with the magnet actually sticks out further.

InsaneClownFish · Nov 12, 2023

Good info. I'll probably switch to citric acid. I've always used vinegar, but I've never used it straight. I always dilute with at least 1/3 ratio of rodi water- and to be honest it's usually a much higher ratio.

WhatCouldGoWrong71 · Nov 20, 2023

I’m still waiting for OP’s wife to post this epic sale… dude, start eating more McDonalds already, will ya

nano reef · Dec 11, 2023

I was just about to use vinegar onmy skimmer pump! I have a little cirtus acid but not quite enough. I bought it from BRS and was pricey for a small container! I will look else were for it

Sisterlimonpot · Dec 12, 2023

Amazon is the place to go for citric acid.

mfinn · Dec 12, 2023

nano reef said:
I was just about to use vinegar onmy skimmer pump! I have a little cirtus acid but not quite enough. I bought it from BRS and was pricey for a small container! I will look else were for it

You know this thread was started specifically for the Vortech pumps and the magnets that are sealed in plastic.
I'm sure you will be fine cleaning your skimmer pump with vinegar this time.

Freenow54 · Dec 12, 2023

redfishbluefish said:
I have posted bits and piece of my vinegar story over the past three years, and I thought it would be beneficial if one post contained all that I've learn. You'll be surprised! This story will contain three parts; my history with vinegar, the cause and simplified chemistry what's happening; and the solution to cleaning your pumps without fear of swelling magnets.

MY STORY

I've been using MP's for many years, and as a good boy, cleaned the wetsides in vinegar (aka, acetic acid) to make them look good and function correctly. I had a very simple way of doing this by immersing the entire wetside in straight vinegar over night and then rinsing and putting back into service.

If anyone is interested, this small plastic container that perfectly fits an MP40 wetside is a one pint talenti ice cream (gelato) container....an overpriced ice cream my wife enjoys....too many times!

About three and a half years ago I found one of my MP40 wetsides slowly spinning. To be crystal clear, the entire wetside...cage and all, was spinning. When I pulled it out I found the magnet had swelled and was binding to the body of the powerhead, causing the entire thing to spin.

I wasn't a happy camper, but over the next couple months, two more were found with swollen magnets (plastic case either swollen and/or cracked), and now also not functioning.

Now this isn't just an MP thing. In retrospect, I had four Koralia Evolution powerheads before switching over to MP's. All four were dead in the water within a year of purchasing new. Two with obvious swollen magnetic portions of the impeller shaft, and two that I couldn't even get the impellers out of the body of the powerhead because they were swollen and stuck within the body. Note that these powerheads were also regularly cleaned in vinegar.

So I have a confession...."Bless me Father for I have sinned"....my wife didn't know what I paid for all the MP's I have...and now I need to go out and drop another $225 for three wetsides. I wasn't happy!!! Note, if I die, my wife will be selling MP40's for about $20 - $25, half of what I supposedly paid.

To finish this story, I later had three MP10's do the same thing. My wife will be selling these for $15 - $20 a piece. Now I know, with six MP's with new wetsides, you're all waiting for me to die!

WHY IMPLICATE VINEGAR

So I was puzzled why my overpriced MP's crapped out, and about six months after loosing my first MP, I came across a post by @Randy Holmes-Farley in which he posted:

"I think the effect on plastic may be worse with vinegar than muriatic acid but it may depend on the plastic.

Vinegar can be in the form of acetic acid and that neutral molecule can enter plastic. Diluted muriatic acid won't have any neutral acidic molecules in it to enter plastic, so just exposes the outermost leading edge of plastic. So while the muriatic acid after dilution is a much stronger acid, i would not assume it is worse on plastics."

This made perfect sense! To clarify, charged molecules won't penetrate plastic, but neutral small molecules will. I will repeat that saying it differently....ionic molecules will react at the surface while small neutral molecules will potentially penetrate that material.

If we look at acids in aqueous solution, they dissociate into ions, which is commonly shown as:

HA(aq) + H2O(l) ⇌ H3O+(aq) + A−(aq)

where HA is the acid. Note that the left side is "neutral" while the right side of the reaction contains "charged" molecules (ions). Specifically, for acetic acid (vinegar), this dissocation looks like this:

CH3COOH + H20 ⇌ H3O+ + CH3COO-

Now here's the kicker....some acids dissociate easily and readily while others dissociate very poorly. In the case of acetic acid, it dissociates very poorly, with the majority still in the neutral CH3COOH configuration. To repeat what I said above, charged ions do not penetrate, while small neutral molecules can.

So what is happening when you clean your parts in vinegar, is that it being neutral, has the abililty to penetrate the plastic and, if within the plastic is metal, cause it to oxidize (rust), and swell. Now this doesn't happen over night, or by one cleaning, but happens over time....months, maybe years, but it will happen. In addition, the type of plastic could impact how quickly (or slowly) the acid penetrates.

Don't get me wrong, vinegar is still great for cleaning tanks and pure plastic parts, but I'd avoid it with metal parts encased in plastic (impellers and pumps.) If the cages alone need to be cleaned of coraline, I'd still consider cages only to be soaked in vinegar. But plastic encased magnets...NO, NO, NO!

IF I CAN'T USE VINEGAR, WHAT AM I TO DO

So what can you use to clean your powerheads and pumps that won't potentially cause the magnets to rust and swell and ruin your pumps? We need to find acids that dissociate completely and/or are too large to penetrate the plastic.

Well there just happens to be two readily available acids available that are reasonably price, and in my opinion, with one, clean better (faster) than vinegar. These two acids are Muriatic Acid and Citric Acid.

Muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric acid) is available at HD and pool stores (and I'm sure other places as well.) One note with muriatic acid, it is hydrochloric acid and needs to be handled with care. It will burn you, cause for holes in your cloths, and is dangerous. So wear rubber gloves, eye protection and be careful.

For cleaning tank parts, I'd recommend dilution 1 to 10. Even at this dilution, it will clean pumps and whatever, much faster than vinegar. You'll actually see the calcification fizz off the equipment.

The other acid that is pump safe is citric acid. You can find five pounds on ebay for a reasonable amount of money....a life time supply. Here you want to dilute about 1 cup to a gallon of water. Throw your pumps into this solution and allow to sit over night and you should find a cleaned pump

CONCLUSION

Vinegar, being a neutral acid, will penetrate plastics. If metal is encased in this plastic, it will find it's way and cause that metal to rust and swell. To avoid this, use other acids, such as muriatic acid or citratic acid to clean your pumps...and have them last forever!

I have used bleach for my skimmer pumps since they sometimes get algae build up in unreachable places. I rinse and soak for days ( 4-5) before putting them back in service, but still see effects on the tank. I did not consider damage though. What are your thoughts on this ( anyone )