Beyond 0 TDS what is not measured, possible other reason for unsucessful reefing

[brad65ford]

Don't post much though I wanted to share some thoughts pertaining to the unknown. I've asked this question in different ways over the past 5 years in different forums as well as searched for information with out much help. Like a lot of you I've been reefing for over 20 years now with great succes though we moved to Florida over 5 years ago and since they we have noticed issues since we have our own well and have a whole house RO then our reef water goes through a reef RO/RI to product 0 TDS (standard pratice for successful reef keeping). Since we moved we've set up a few different reef tanks over the years with no difference in husbandry then any of our others but have had barely any success growing corals worth measuring like we used to. We've come to the concusion there is something that can not be seen in our water that could be pathogens, other metals or carcinogens we can not measure since we are not testing for them simply put. I've recently seen a video stating there is other things in water that has 0 TDS.

If this is a plasuable issue we have, this means we are not alone and there are other things that we all should be testing for beyond 0 TDS, this could be a reason in which some have success while other do not. Taking it a step further imagine if this is true and you keep adding the same top off water that has this 0 tds but you continuing adding these other harmful substances. If your corals are not uptaking them its only increasing the concentrations and making things worse. Pretty much this is what we have seen and why our system does actually get better with larger water changes.

IMHO its possibly the holy grail of reef keep that no one knows about or wants to address since 0 TDS may not be a bar to reach thinking all is fine.

 

[brad65ford]

Edited first post.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t mean to insult, and the question is well worth asking, but the likelihood of problematic things being in 0 ppm TDS water from an RO/Di that started with drinking water is very unlikely. I based that on a detailed understanding of what an RO/DI does, and what might be in tap water to begin with.

There certainly are things that get through an RO/DI, and in fact, everything gets through to some extent.

The issue is the extent, and the fact that actually potable water cannot be that bad to begin with.

The things that get through the most are very small uncharged chemicals, and if the ones likely to be in tap water, silica is among the most common. That’s not reef killer (I dosed it) and worst case is diatoms.

That all said, if you let the tds rise, the effluent may contain more of some ions, such as ammonium, than the incoming water.

I think it very unlikely to cause reef problems, but RO/DI can have bacteria in it that can grow downstream of the ro. I wouldn’t drink it for that reason, but it seems unlikely to harm a reef.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you describe the problem your reef is having and what you have done to diagnose it?

 

[brad65ford]

Can you describe the problem your reef is having and what you have done to diagnose it?

Hi Randy, Thank you for your response to this. Good to see there is open thoughts that there could possibly be issues of water sources for reefers like myself regardless of the tds being 0. My well water is 4500 TDS before it goest through a whole house R/O system. Once it goest through that R/O it produces about 80-100 TDS but still sticks like sulfur due to the gasses in the water. We then turn over the 500 gallon tank multiple times a day with adding Ozone to brake down the sulfur. It then gets filter with a large standing carbon tank (changed out once a year) before entering in our house. At that point we've set up a Ro/DI 5 stage system and it processes the water to 0 TDS. There is an ordor still but its not Sulfur at this point, almost as if its like plastic or pee smell. We can not figure that point out. As of last week we ran a Triton on the 130g system we have. We are high in SB which is antimony. https://www.triton-lab.de/en/aquaria-administration/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/61001/
I've had a heck of a time getting corals to grow down her in Florida due to this water we currently have. They live but don't thrive like the many many other systems I had prior. There is something in our water that isn't good thats for sure just change find out what it is to filter it out.

 

[chargingxray]

4500 TDS? that's crazy high I thought mine was high at 650.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The link to the Triton test doesn't lead to values.

Have you ever had the 80-100 ppm TDS house water tested for drinakability?

Hi Randy, Thank you for your response to this. Good to see there is open thoughts that there could possibly be issues of water sources for reefers like myself regardless of the tds being 0. My well water is 4500 TDS before it goest through a whole house R/O system. Once it goest through that R/O it produces about 80-100 TDS but still sticks like sulfur due to the gasses in the water. We then turn over the 500 gallon tank multiple times a day with adding Ozone to brake down the sulfur. It then gets filter with a large standing carbon tank (changed out once a year) before entering in our house. At that point we've set up a Ro/DI 5 stage system and it processes the water to 0 TDS. There is an ordor still but its not Sulfur at this point, almost as if its like plastic or pee smell. We can not figure that point out. As of last week we ran a Triton on the 130g system we have. We are high in SB which is antimony. https://www.triton-lab.de/en/aquaria-administration/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/61001/
I've had a heck of a time getting corals to grow down her in Florida due to this water we currently have. They live but don't thrive like the many many other systems I had prior. There is something in our water that isn't good thats for sure just change find out what it is to filter it out.

Lots of people have lots of problems, and they often have nothing to do with chemistry issues. Chemistry is easy to blame since it is a black box for many people, but biological issues are far more complicated. Pathogenic bacteria and viruses, other sorts of pests that you may not even see, appropriate flow, light, etc.

Bear in mind that the above video is a marketing thing from a company that claims to filter water but they not reduce TDS, so they put down the utility of the measurement since their competitors (such as RO methods) do reduce TDS. I agree that TDS is not the goal, but it is a great way to monitor functioning of an RO/DI.

 

[brad65ford]

The link to the Triton test doesn't lead to values.

Have you ever had the 80-100 ppm TDS house water tested for drinakability?



Lots of people have lots of problems, and they often have nothing to do with chemistry issues. Chemistry is easy to blame since it is a black box for many people, but biological issues are far more complicated. Pathogenic bacteria and viruses, other sorts of pests that you may not even see, appropriate flow, light, etc.

Bear in mind that the above video is a marketing thing from a company that claims to filter water but they not reduce TDS, so they put down the utility of the measurement since their competitors (such as RO methods) do reduce TDS. I agree that TDS is not the goal, but it is a great way to monitor functioning of an RO/DI.

No Randy sadly we haven't. The water company we called said as long as its below x,y z you are fine. But using the reef tank similar to what coal miners have down with birds, its seems like something is off. I've called a few water test places and they asked me in order for us to test you need to tell us what to test for which seems odd but I get it. There could be hundereds of things to test for. Hence we haven't tested yet would love to send out a water sample to somewhere.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How high was the antimony in the tank water?

here's someone with 4.5 ug/L and they thought the tank was fine looking:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-results-are-in.403868/

 

[brad65ford]

How high was the antimony in the tank water?

here's someone with 4.5 ug/L and theu thought the tank was fine looking:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-results-are-in.403868/

Not sure why i can't share our triton link but its.
58 µg/l

 

[brad65ford]

try this.
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/61001/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is a lot, but I have no data on how much is too much for a reef as it is quite uncommon.

I don't know where it may be coming from.

The EPA sets the action level for drinking water at 6 ppb (6 ug/L). If you run an RO/DI that drops your drinking water TDS from, 100 ppm to 0 ppm, then to have enough antimony remaining to boost your tank significantly, it would have to be very, very high in the drinking water.

https://safewater.zendesk.com/hc/en...PA-s-drinking-water-regulations-for-antimony-

and this has more:
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/antimony.pdf

Reverse osmosis alone (not counting DI) is pretty efficient at removing antimony. This demonstration program showed that RO and the prefilters removed 99% of it, while was only 97% effective at TDS removal, implying that antimony is well removed (at least the form they had present, which is usually Sb(OH)6)- in drinking water.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...ackDesc=Results page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=5

Thus, if somehow you are getting a lot of antimony into the post RO/DI water, then there is likely a super high level in the house drinking water, and I'd get that tested for human safety.

 

[Jason Jones]

@brad65ford where are you at in SWFL?
There is a water test facility in North Port that can do the full 6 panel drinking water test for roughly $135.

 

[Rispa]

I think it very unlikely to cause reef problems, but RO/DI can have bacteria in it that can grow downstream of the ro. I wouldn’t drink it for that reason, but it seems unlikely to harm a reef.

you mean bacteria in the hose?

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Something to consider: http://www.buckeyehydro.com/drinking-water-test/
This test includes 44 analytes, but does not include antimony.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

you mean bacteria in the hose?

Bacteria can grow on the downstream side of the ro membrane, for example.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@brad65ford where are you at in SWFL?
There is a water test facility in North Port that can do the full 6 panel drinking water test for roughly $135.

ATI will do an ro/di icp analysis (all are inorganic chemicals) when testing tank water by icp.

 

[Jason Jones]

ATI will do an ro/di icp analysis (all are inorganic chemicals) when testing tank water by icp.

That is good to know. I’ve only used Triton for ICP thus far.
I know our local municipalities require a lead, nitrite, nitrate, bacteria and total chloroform test for mortgages on private water. That’s the only reason I know of the lab.

On a side note, have you ever cross checked ATI, Triton or Coralvues ICP to see how the values compare?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t recall seeing coralvue, but many folks have used ATI and Triton. A few folks have submitted to both, and the differences haven’t been dramatic and may be hard to interpret.