Beyond frustrated with this algae. Please help

[Calpoly2103]

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info: some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak...

www.reef2reef.com

Here’s a great article on this forum. You do not want your phosphates and nitrates to bottom out. MB7 (Microbacter 7 bacteria) will actually work to get these numbers to zero. I haven’t heard of a nitrifying and denitrifying actually eating dinos. A bacterium is <10 microns or so while a dinoflagellate is typically much much bigger. (Dinoflagellates can be seen with a relatively cheap microscope, whereas bacteria are so small, you need a special microscope to id) I don’t think the bacteria (much less mb7) will munch on dinos.

I’ll put this in layman’s terms. Dinos take over when there is no competition from other things in the water - like microalgae for example. You want your tank to actually have algae in it. Bottled bacteria will help to keep microalgae and Cyanobacteria under control because they thrive in higher nutrient environments. However, once the algae starts to starve off, dinos are given the green light and when they put their foot in your tank, they won’t go away so easily.
- up your phosphates and nitrates, slowly
- UV filter
- hydrogen peroxide
They should steadily decline. It takes time, but you’ll get there eventually. No overnight fix.

Thanks, this is really helpful

 

[Calpoly2103]

I appreciate all the comments in this fight for my tank. I took the best pictures I could with my smart phone and unfortunately dont have a microscope. Based on everything I've read I believe its dinos because: 1) my snails have had GHA since day 1, it looks long and stringy and I scrape it off occasionally. The issue in question looks nothing like this and is more of a brown netting across my sandbed/rocks. 2) In the mornings its nowhere to be seen, but evenings after work it's all over the place. 3) from what I understand cyano is more red, mine is more brown. 4) I have regular algae build up on my glass, just regular film which I scrape off every few days, so it's not regular algae. 5) some of these strings have bubbles at the end especially on the rocks.

I will try to take more pictures if I can get better lighting and quality. I appreciate everyone's insight. I hope I can win this battle and continue my dream/pursuit of a beautiful tank. Lights out for me today, and looking to purchase a UV if anyone has a good recommendation for a 40 gallon AIO nuvo IM.

 

[bluprntguy]

A few months ago we would have looked at this and said, "new tank syndrome". A short time later, it turned into, "get a scope to confirm if its dino's, it's the only way". Then we discovered the whole strain it and let it reform quick test, which was recommended for a hot minute if no scope available. Now it seems like everything is dino's unless proven otherwise, with or without true confirmation.

I think we should be doing our part to stem the hysteria not feed into it. Might it be dino? Sure. But why are we skipping the confirmation part?

Dinos aren't new. I battled them in my previous tank for a few months 5 years ago. I posted pics, someone helped identify them, I treated them in pretty much the same manner that's being discussed here. I didn't buy a microscope or run water through a coffee filter. My photos and description were enough for identification.

No one is being hysterical. The pics posted by the OP look like dinos. The description sounds like dinos. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck...

A blackout and peroxide treatment of the tank isn't likely to cause any problems and I'd argue that it would probably improve water parameters. Adding UV is likely to be beneficial on a number of fronts as well. Pretty much everything suggested so far would lead to better overall tank health, which is pretty much the main point of dino control.

 

[Tamberav]

Looks like dino to me. I got rid of mine using UV which very well works for specific types of dino.

 

[Calpoly2103]

Course of Action: I dipped all my zoa's in Coral RX Pro to rid of all the dino's covering them. Starting today, my tank will be lights out for 4 days. I will pick up some 3% Hydrogen Peroxide and dose it at 1ml / 10 Gallon each night. I have a Nuvo 40 GAL AIO, with 28 gallons of water volume so I will dose 2.8ML 3% Hydrogen Peroxide. I am also looking for a UV appropriate for this tank/purpose if anyone has any suggestions.

Question though, should I be dosing Phosphate everyday? Since I will keep my skimmer/fuge (no light) on to process the dead dino's, it will also be stripping tank out of nutrients. If I want to rid the Dino's, i'll want to have phosphates available, correct? Or am I feeding them by doing that? My Nitrate seem fairly stable around 5-10ppm. Thanks

 

[bluprntguy]

Course of Action: I dipped all my zoa's in Coral RX Pro to rid of all the dino's covering them. Starting today, my tank will be lights out for 4 days. I will pick up some 3% Hydrogen Peroxide and dose it at 1ml / 10 Gallon each night. I have a Nuvo 40 GAL AIO, with 28 gallons of water volume so I will dose 2.8ML 3% Hydrogen Peroxide. I am also looking for a UV appropriate for this tank/purpose if anyone has any suggestions.

Question though, should I be dosing Phosphate everyday? Since I will keep my skimmer/fuge (no light) on to process the dead dino's, it will also be stripping tank out of nutrients. If I want to rid the Dino's, i'll want to have phosphates available, correct? Or am I feeding them by doing that? My Nitrate seem fairly stable around 5-10ppm. Thanks

Sounds like a good initial plan.

How are you testing phosphates (Hanna checker, type of other test kit)? I'd want to be certain you have extremely low phosphates before recommending that you continue to dose them.

 

[Brew12]

Biodiversity in a system is your friend when it comes to problematic bacteria and dino's. You want more "stuff" in your system that can eat or compete with the dino's. It may sound counter intuitive, but if you have a fellow reefer in the area you can get a mature piece of live rock from or even muck from their sump, it could help. Not quite as good as that would be dosing live phytoplankton. If you don't have them already, it can help to add amphipods, copepods and rotifers.

 

[Calpoly2103]

I've got salifert phosphate test. Initially I struggled keeping Nitrates down, so I started a small fuge in a rear chamber. Nitrates are now in check, but phosphates were testing 0 (clear white). So i purchased a bottle of neopohs to dose. Since I started dosing daily I get a little color on the result (0.01-0.03) and its used up by the end of the day. Dino's still started unfortunately during this time.

 

[Calpoly2103]

Biodiversity in a system is your friend when it comes to problematic bacteria and dino's. You want more "stuff" in your system that can eat or compete with the dino's. It may sound counter intuitive, but if you have a fellow reefer in the area you can get a mature piece of live rock from or even muck from their sump, it could help. Not quite as good as that would be dosing live phytoplankton. If you don't have them already, it can help to add amphipods, copepods and rotifers.

Thank you, unfortunately I don't have any friends in the hobby. Hopefully i'll meet some over time. Looks like there is quite a few in the bay area. I got a couple shipments of pods from Algae Barn, and got some of their chaeto to create a home for them. I see them pretty often on my glass and my anthias/clowns snack on them. When I checked the fuge though, my chaeto wasn't doing too well (kind of slimy and browning out). Perhaps i'll buy some phyto to feed my pod population. I started moving around the chaeto every few days and made more flow, but doesn't look like its helping.

 

[Calpoly2103]

It is dinos. Reduce those lights to near dark or black out tank (no lights- just room lights) for 3-4 days. Add 1ml Hydrogen Peroxide per 10 gallons daily, preferably at night.
Will be gone before you know it. Also use a turkey baster to blow off coral and send it to your overflow to the sump

When I dose the hydrogen peroxide, should I just put it all at once into a high flow area?

 

[vetteguy53081]

When I dose the hydrogen peroxide, should I just put it all at once into a high flow area?

1ml for each 10 gallons and flow goodto place it.
100 gallon tank would be 10nl, etc. I dosed a little more than that

 

[Calpoly2103]

@vetteguy53081 @scott @bluprntguy Well tank has been blacked out for 2 days and dosing hydrogen peroxide. I've been blowing them off and mixing the sand. No new dinos but probably due to lights out.

Trying to clarify something. I dose red sea A & B twice a week. Should I hold off on this? Also, once lights go back on, should I start dosing phosphate again to keep it above 0? I'm trying to prevent another dino outbreak after fixing this one.

 

[Paullawr]

Judging by the way its stringing Id wager ostreopsis. Which is treated well with UV. Look at the jebao 55w (needs good wattage to break through cells theca).

Don't waste time with h202, blackouts. Wont work. Its almost an urban legend and thought we had disproven these fixes.

Also fauna marin red x is great for small outbreaks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Do Not dose any red sea or coral foods which are food and fuel for dino health and growth

 

[vetteguy53081]

Judging by the way its stringing Id wager ostreopsis. Which is treated well with UV. Look at the jebao 55w (needs good wattage to break through cells theca).

Don't waste time with h202, blackouts. Wont work. Its almost an urban legend and thought we had disproven these fixes.

Also fauna marin red x is great for small outbreaks.

SMH- I just had an extreme case of this and using this method cleared it up in 6 days (@660 gallons). I think it is proven and Know of at least 15 people who also tried it and cleaned it up successfully. If youre going to challenge it, feed coral or broadcast foods- Then you will fail.

 

[Paullawr]

SMH- I just had an extreme case of this and using this method cleared it up in 6 days (@660 gallons). I think it is proven and Know of at least 15 people who also tried it and cleaned it up successfully. If youre going to challenge it, feed coral or broadcast foods- Then you will fail.

Pardon?

There are reports of successes with h202. Though against which strain and whether they were true dinoflagellates is another matter entirely.
There are far more reports of failed dosing. Period.

As oxidizing agent its relatively weak against most strains in quantities deemed reef safe.
In addition its indiscriminate at what it oxidizes.

Various (almost lab grade, aka at a hobby level) tests have been run proving that a number of strains are simply not harmed by dosing - up to some quite extreme levels. Its not powerful enough to dent the theca.

Blackouts are a myth. Because the tank looks clearer after three days of taping up the aquarium it doesn't mean it is.

Cells disperse in to water column or beneath substrate depending on strain. They most certainly arnt dead .

The most accurate way of dealing with them is to ID via microscope then look at methods for that strain.

I am not following your point about broadcast feeding either. I dont disagree feeding the tank certain products brings them out. Trace elements and aminos are usually a sure fire way of causing a bloom.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pardon?

There are reports of successes with h202. Though against which strain and whether they were true dinoflagellates is another matter entirely.
There are far more reports of failed dosing. Period.

As oxidizing agent its relatively weak against most strains in quantities deemed reef safe.
In addition its indiscriminate at what it oxidizes.

Various (almost lab grade, aka at a hobby level) tests have been run proving that a number of strains are simply not harmed by dosing - up to some quite extreme levels. Its not powerful enough to dent the theca.

Blackouts are a myth. Because the tank looks clearer after three days of taping up the aquarium it doesn't mean it is.

Cells disperse in to water column or beneath substrate depending on strain. They most certainly arnt dead .

The most accurate way of dealing with them is to ID via microscope then look at methods for that strain.

I am not following your point about broadcast feeding either. I dont disagree feeding the tank certain products brings them out. Trace elements and aminos are usually a sure fire way of causing a bloom.

Same with reef roids, Use of No-Pox and the list goes on

 

[Paullawr]

Same with reef roids, Use of No-Pox and the list goes on

That's because strains have various feeding habits. Very few require just light - hance blackouts being ineffective.

 

[Calpoly2103]

Well, I've had my lights off for 3 days, yesterday at 25% and today at 50%. I have dosed hydrogen peroxide at 4ml every night for the last 4 days. Although my tank looks a lot cleaner, unfortunately I see again that little strands are starting to appear back on my sandbed. It looks like some pieces are attached to my crushed coral sand. It's barely noticeable, but I know how quickly it grows....I also turned my flow up

 

[Paullawr]

Well, I've had my lights off for 3 days, yesterday at 25% and today at 50%. I have dosed hydrogen peroxide at 4ml every night for the last 4 days. Although my tank looks a lot cleaner, unfortunately I see again that little strands are starting to appear back on my sandbed. It looks like some pieces are attached to my crushed coral sand. It's barely noticeable, but I know how quickly it grows....I also turned my flow up

Hi

This is a typical response with dinoflagellates. I know I’ve dealt with them on numerous aquariums over the past ten years and yes I’ve tried as part of many treatments black outs and h202.

Blackouts make the aquarium appear cleaner due to the cells natural diurnal cycle. During the day blooms (for example stringing or sand becoming darker) will appear. At night this fades. Some strains disperse in to water column whilst others retreat in to sand. As an example. Once lights are on they re-emerge.

Dinos are incredibly complex and divergences between strains can massively impact how they are dealt with.

If you want a good all round treatment try fauna Marin red x. I’ve used it to treat some infestations which didn’t respond well to other treatments. But need to give it a chance or good physical removal first before starting the two week dosing and monitoring stage.

If this doesn’t work or whilst treating pick up a cheap microscope (those Chinese digital pc connected ones work fine) examine the cells then identify strain.

As I say it’s probably ostreopsis which is treated well with powerful UV.

Most people look to balance nutrients as this can also help.