Big 3 Shootout Alk, Ca, Mg: RedSea, Nyos, Elos, Salifert, API, Hanna, Triton, AWT

[jason2459]

Just waiting for the Triton results now. I have the AWT results.

After I get the Triton results in I'll probably do another round of Mg and Ca testing with the kit furthest from their results vs the kit closest.

 

[jason2459]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what is AWT testing for when they list Ionic Calcium vs Calcium?


Edit:
I also sent the question to AWT
"What is the difference between Ionic Calcium vs Calcium? And why are they listed separately?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what is AWT testing for when they list Ionic Calcium vs Calcium?


Edit:
I also sent the question to AWT
"What is the difference between Ionic Calcium vs Calcium? And why are they listed separately?

I have never understood that. There are a number of possibilities, but none seem to fit the values they give. I suspect it is just the nonadjusted value they get with a calcium electrode, but I cannot see any useful meaning to it.

Some possibilities include:

1. Calcium not bound to any organic matter (but their values see too low for that)
2. Calcium not ionically bound to any other inorganics (like soluble CaSO4; should be about 89% of the total calcium for normal seawater)
3. The activity of the calcium ion rather than the concentration. Activity is the activity coefficient times the concentration. For normal seawater, this is about 0.22 times the total concentration. In a sense it indicates how free or available the calcium is.

 

[jason2459]

Thanks for the input. I'm awaiting an email back from AWT with what their answer is as well.

Their parameter page only talks of Calcium and not their Ionic Calcium
http://aquamedicwatertesting.com/parameters/

and under the results the definition of both are the same. They even have a seawater value and range.

Ionic Calcium (Ca)
Natural Seawater Value: 180 mg/L
Acceptable Range: 100 – 400 mg/L

(GOOD) Your ionic calcium level is within the recommended range. We recommend that you continue with your current schedule of calcium additions. Calcium is critical to healthy coral skeletal growth, and many other biological processes. Maintenance of calcium levels that are at or near seawater values is an important factor in having a healthy reef aquarium.


Total Calcium (Ca)
Natural Seawater Value: 400 mg/L
Acceptable Range: 350 – 450 mg/L

(GOOD) Your calcium level is within the recommended range. We recommend that you continue with your current schedule of calcium additions. Calcium is critical to healthy coral skeletal growth, and many other biological processes. Maintenance of calcium levels that are at or near seawater values is an important factor in having a healthy reef aquarium.

 

[NeverlosT]

This is great work and I very much appreciate your taking the time to post all of this.

Another good experiment would be buying several reagents from a few places to ensure different batch numbers, and testing with them to determine batch to batch variability.

Also, you mention the Hanna recall, where the lid interferes with the reagent and they are sending everyone new reagents (I still didn't get mine, but I store my bottle vertically so it still seems accurate). I do not believe they have a recall for it, but Red Sea also has a problem at the moment with some batches of their Alkalinity reagent. The problem batches don't go from blue to red crisply, they go from blue to orange very gradually. If you witness this behavior and contact Red Sea, they will quickly replace your reagent for free.

Regarding Hanna Checkers, Alkalinity is solid gold, Phosphorus ULR is good, and the calcium is a nightmare (way too sensitive to test setup).

 

[jason2459]

Will write up something later but for now...

 

[jason2459]

More to do but got this together.

 

[samba_dad]

Following...interested in seeing most accurate test kits. Thanks for doing this - much appreciated!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know you'll probably put together a summary set of data, but it looks like AWT is an outlier with a lower calcium reading and the NYOS looks like an outlier on the high side. Most others seemed pretty close, together, IMO.

 

[jason2459]

Following...interested in seeing most accurate test kits. Thanks for doing this - much appreciated!

Welcome and thanks. I hope they are useful for others as they have for me.

I know you'll probably put together a summary set of data, but it looks like AWT is an outlier with a lower calcium reading and the NYOS looks like an outlier on the high side. Most others seemed pretty close, together, IMO.

I've been busy with work and home so have been getting things posted as I can so this thread has been a bit more choppy then the others but it has a lot more data in itself and will be looking back at previous testings too.

And as always thanks for the input. Looks like I'll be doing a mini retest with Nyos calcium and Red Sea/Elos Mg.

 

[jason2459]

Just the numbers

Temp: 76.7F
pH: 8.13

Salinity:
Apex and Veegee: 35.5ppt
AWT A: 38.5ppt (converted from 1.029)
AWT B: 38.5ppt (converted from 1.029
Triton A: 36.3ppt (estimated)
Triton B: 36.12ppt (estimated)

Nitrates (mg/L):
Redsea: undetectable < .25
AWT A: 1.6
AWT B: 1.3

Phosphates:
Hanna: 0.0245 ppm (converted from 8ppb phosphorous)
AWT A: 0.01ppm
AWT B: 0.02ppm
Triton A: 0.014ppm (converted from 4.43ppb)
Triton B: 0.016ppm (converted from 5.13ppb)

Alkalinity:
Red Sea: 11.76
Elos: 11.5
Nyos: 12
Salifert: 12.1
Hanna: 12.15
API: 12
AWT A: 12.04 (converted from 4.3meq/L)
AWT B: 11.2 (converted from 4meq/L)

Calcium:
Red Sea: 470
Elos: 470
Nyos: 550
Salifert: 470
API: 500
AWT A: 420
AWT B: 400
Triton A: 463.5
Triton B: 461.10

Magnesium:
Red Sea: 2080
Elos: 1350
Nyos: 1440
Salifert: 1470
AWT A: 1540
AWT B: 1560
Triton A: 1475
Triton B: 1468

 

[samba_dad]

Wow - that difference in salinity is much larger than I thought it would be. It looks like Salifert for the win. I still like my Hannah alkalinity checker because it is so darn quick.

 

[jason2459]

Wow - that difference in salinity is much larger than I thought it would be. It looks like Salifert for the win. I still like my Hannah alkalinity checker because it is so darn quick.

I would not put much trust in the AWT readings.

 

[jason2459]

Sorry the nitrate list should be mg/L or what many would say ppm not ppt. I can't edit it anymore.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry the nitrate list should be mg/L or what many would say ppm not ppt. I can't edit it anymore.

I fixed it.

 

[jason2459]

I fixed it.

Thanks!

 

[jason2459]

Mini Comparison Retest

I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong and could track change. I took a sample of my tank water and lowered it's salinity with RO/DI to ~34ppt. I should then see a drop in Mg and Ca with all kits and if not I'm definitely doing something wrong or the reagents are bad for that particular kit is bad.


Calcium
I went ahead and retested this one. It's quick and easy so why not. It was a bit on the high side previously .
API: 460

Then went on to Nyos which was very high previously compared to everything else. I ended up going through an entire syringe again and then a tiny bit more.
Nyos: 525
2nd syringe

Finished off with Salifert which with Elos was right on point with Triton.
Salifert: 450

Magnesium:

Mg had a low and high outlier. Started with the crazy high Red Sea
Red Sea Mg Pro: 1800

Then Elos which was much lower then all others
Elos: 1250

No syringes with this get in either phases.


Finished off with Salifert that I've always trusted and has been on point with Triton several times now.
Salifert: 1380

Seems like everything read lower as they should have. But inaccuracy was still consistent. Nyos Ca and Red Sea Mg high and Elos Mg low. API compared well with Salifert which historically has been my experience. I will figure that slightly higher API result previously in this thread was due to some error I did. Especially considering it was the last kit I did which was something around 1am I think. Yep, according to Apex Fusion 1:11am.


Will have more to write up after this.

 

[jason2459]

Who doesn't like more numbers put together. Puts things in another perspective for me.

 

[jason2459]

Final Sumary

Starting with the main 3 parameters I titled this thread for there was some very interesting and wild results. I think if there really can be an overall winner that would be Salifert as it was consistent and reliable every time for all parameters I've used it for so far even beyond the "big 3" (though I did not like it for PO4 due to readability.) To me the looser over all in this would be AWT.

AWT if following their recommendations I would be all at the same time trying to lower my salinity, raise my calcium, lower magnesium, and lower alkalinity. The results were just all over the place. I would love to know how they do many of their measurements especially for Salinity. In every instance even in past comparisons it's been off compared to everything else. Calcium lower and their Mg quite a bit higher. I understand variances will happen between tests but should be with in a range of accuracy. Like with Alkalinity where they provide a result to the decimal point I would expect a +/- of at least .5 or under dKH. Between the two samples that were taken from my tank at the same time was over 1 dKH off. At least calcium and Mg was with in 20ppm of each other between samples which I would be fine with.

I think I've ranted enough about AWT between now and my previous AWT comparison thread. One place I will not use again any time soon.


Alkalinity:
I already kind of summarized this above and don't have much to add to it. All the kits and even AWT were pretty close to each other around 11-12dKH. Personally I liked using API as I really don't need that much higher Resolution. If I did Hanna or Salifert would be my first choice. The Hanna Checker was very easy to use but really so is API. I'm still kind of split between going forward with those two. Nyos has the exact same resolution as API but cost is twice as much so not worth it to me. Elos was slightly higher resolution with .5dKH resolution but costs just as much or more then Salifert which Salifert has a much higher resolution so would be a better kit for the money.



Calcium:
Salifert may be the overall winner but API still has my vote for this parameter. API is just so easy compared to all the others and a more then high enough resolution of 20ppm. I'm sure I did something wrong which is hard to do with the API kit but something silly like didn't count the right number of drops or a drop missed the vial, etc. If I did that wrong by 1 drop would mean a result of 480.

For a higher resolution kit Salifert, Elos, Red Sea all seems more then capable to produce a reliable number. All had pretty much the same kind of steps and needing to watch the end point colors and not stopping on purple. I have no answer for Nyos and that is one more kit I will not look at using again. It's results are well out of the range of a +/- accuracy thing. For me a +/- 20ppm range is more then acceptable for calcium even if the kit says it's better then that. Nyos is supposed to be better then that.


Magnesium:
I do not know why I keep trying Red Sea Mg Pro. I have given it many chances and not once have I gotten a reliable number. I've gotten very low and very high results in the past and now. Of all the kits and places this is one that I trust the least and most frustrated with. I've been happy with all the other Red Sea testing kits. This makes the Calcium, Alk, Mg bundle to me to be not worth it.

Elos Mg kit was also off but on the lower side. It could be the 2 phase approach which I do not like at all. Way to much room for error. Elos PO4 Pro kit was awesome and Calcium and Alk in line with the others. So, this was kind of disappointing.

Salifert. This really just solidifies Salifert as that overall winner here. It's nailed it in all three of these parameters and many others. It may not be my go to for everything but I know I can count on Salifert if I ever needed too. If someone wanted to stick with a single brand for all tests Salifert is it. more then enough accuracy, high enough resolution, and consistent. Could not ask more of a hobby grade kit. I would even stack it up against the "professionals" (ahem AWT...)

Triton:
And talking about professional labs, I've already ranted about AWT enough, Triton has given some interesting results over time as well. But overall I think I can easily count on Triton for the major elements. I'm still skeptical on the minor ones. There were some slight variance between the two samples I sent but I think perfectly acceptable. I'm not going to get into testing with them every month but I still certainly see myself doing it 1-2x per year. Purely out of curiosity and enjoyment.


My most recent results were pretty darn good I think. Interesting that most all those weird metals are all but gone. No more Iron, Zinc or Tin. Al still slightly there but seems to be going. Where it's coming or came from I have no idea. I do have a Fiji leather but don't think it's getting irritated by the Aluminum levels or anything else. I'm not to concerned about it. It seems like if I do nothing is better then doing something. Iodine is back down and haven't dosed it at all since before the last set of Triton tests. I have been adding a small amount of the Sr/Mo Kent Supplement to my new salt mix used for automatic water changes. Looks like it's maintained the suggested set point by Triton for Sr and Mo is at least raised slightly for anything that likes Mo. Goniopora is supposed to but I have no real idea if it does. My red ora goniopora has been doing well so will keep dosing that.

Lithium, don't care but that may be the lithium talking...

And to summarize the summary I think I will just copy paste what I bulleted in my last everything vs. Triton vs. AWT test thread with a few modifications

• I can generally trust myself in testing the basic major elements.
• All testing is susceptible to testing error some places or kits more then others
•All reagents go bad but some may come that way
•Most all test kits are accurate enough so pick one you can perform consistently and able to read the end points
• There are a few kits or tests I will not Look at again AWT, Red Sea Mg, Elos Mg, Nyos Ca
•Dosing with out testing is risky
•Testing to determine dosing can cause anxiety
•A single test or data point is unreliable and with out trends can be misleading
•Using your eyes to pay attention to how your tank is "Acting" can be better then any test
•Do not change what is not broken
•Don't be close minded and opposed to change
•I love my veegee /vitalsine salinity refractometer

 

[samba_dad]

Thanks very much for doing this for the community! Lots of people will benefit from your work here!