Biodiversity - Beating the Ugly Stage

Indiana Jones

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Hi,

I am looking for a good path going forward for a successful reef tank. I am a new reefer, my tank is an E-170, and only about 2.5 months old now. I started with Dry rock, live sand, and Dr Tim's One and Only. Currently have 2 clown fish, and 1 starry blenny. I plan to add a wrasse of somekind, aiptasia filefish, and possibly a small tang in the future. I have gotten most of my information from the BRStv - 5 minute guide videos. I just watched Ryan's speech at the NY Reef Palooza on Biome Cycling, and thought this topic was great timing for my reef keeping journey. I realize they have not released the series yet on YouTube, but I'd like to ask a couple questions to the community.

My biggest concern is the ugly stage. My lights have been off, and plan to keep them off for the initial 4 months. Once they go on, I know that the uglies will start, but I don't really have a proactive measure in place to overcome them. Whats the best way to overcome the ugly stage?

Cyano
: Is there something I can do to proactively keep this away? I have been keeping somewhat consistent maintenance with 10% water changes weekly. I feed the fish every other day, so I don't think im over feeding. If it does appear I know I could dose a product, but as Ryan mentioned in his speech I'd like to have something in place to handle it naturally with out human intervention. Is this where a product like AF Life Source, or Microbacter7 comes into play?

Green Algae: I am not too concerned about green algae, because of the utilitarian fish and keeping lights off for 4 months.

Dinos: It sounds like if you get Dinos copepods would be the best predator to counter it. Can I cultivate a copepod colony in a E170 with no refugium? Or put something in the media rack to house them if necessary?

Is dosing something like Microbacter7 a couple months before lights go on a good solution to establish the biodiversity? Or AF Life Source better?


Thanks in advance for any feedback.
 

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Ocean live rock will fast-track the maturity of your tank like nothing else. Can't beat it for biodiversity.

That said, don't worry about the ugly stage. Best thing to do there is to keep nutrients up, add snails when needed, and let it happen. It won't hurt anything, and it has to happen eventually. You can't get that nice layer of healthy, beneficial algae on your dry rock without something else growing first. Let it happen, and it should resolve itself on its own.

Dinos are a consequence of nutrients being too low, not a normal part of the ugly stage.

Feed your fish every day, if not more. Every other day isn't enough, and nutrients (in moderation) are not a bad thing. If your nutrients go too high when feeding your fish a reasonable amount, increase water changes, don't decrease feeding. You shouldn't feed a dog infrequently to avoid cleaning up poo, and the same applies to fish.
 

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I'm a newbie myself, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm just over a year in -- granted my tank is only 30 gallons -- but I've been battling dinos for 7 months now. I'm considering starting all over and changing two things that I did:

1) I would start with wet live rock. I used Marco Dry shelf rock so I could aquascape more precisely to my liking, but I think that was a mistake in the end. FYI I did use CaribSea Live sand from the start.

2) Not let my nutrients bottom out. I think I overused the carbon and iron filtration. The UV sterilizer was probably fine, but I believe my chemical filtration caused the nitrate and phosphate to hit zero -- which is when the Dinos first started.

Currently, I'm dosing silica with the hope of outcompeting the dinos with a diatom bloom.

Just my thoughts! Wish you the best!
 

Dipper Pines

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also watched that video and was very surprised that there is a kind of copepod that eats dinos, I always thought that no living creature eats them. Does anyone know exactly the name of the species of copepods that eats dinos Although to be honest, I still strongly doubt their existence.
 
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Indiana Jones

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Ocean live rock will fast-track the maturity of your tank like nothing else. Can't beat it for biodiversity.

That said, don't worry about the ugly stage. Best thing to do there is to keep nutrients up, add snails when needed, and let it happen. It won't hurt anything, and it has to happen eventually. You can't get that nice layer of healthy, beneficial algae on your dry rock without something else growing first. Let it happen, and it should resolve itself on its own.

Dinos are a consequence of nutrients being too low, not a normal part of the ugly stage.

Feed your fish every day, if not more. Every other day isn't enough, and nutrients (in moderation) are not a bad thing. If your nutrients go too high when feeding your fish a reasonable amount, increase water changes, don't decrease feeding. You shouldn't feed a dog infrequently to avoid cleaning up poo, and the same applies to fish.
Thanks for the feedback. Good point on feeding. Would you recommend not using MB7 proactively then?
 

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Indiana Jones

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I'm a newbie myself, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm just over a year in -- granted my tank is only 30 gallons -- but I've been battling dinos for 7 months now. I'm considering starting all over and changing two things that I did:

1) I would start with wet live rock. I used Marco Dry shelf rock so I could aquascape more precisely to my liking, but I think that was a mistake in the end. FYI I did use CaribSea Live sand from the start.

2) Not let my nutrients bottom out. I think I overused the carbon and iron filtration. The UV sterilizer was probably fine, but I believe my chemical filtration caused the nitrate and phosphate to hit zero -- which is when the Dinos first started.

Currently, I'm dosing silica with the hope of outcompeting the dinos with a diatom bloom.

Just my thoughts! Wish you the best!
Im sorry to hear that you are battling dinos. I don't really know enough to offer any advice. I started with marco dry rock and carribsea live sand also.
 

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I avoid overfeeding and run an oversized UV to help control certain algae. Start your photo period from 6-8 hours and slowly increase over a couple months.

Copepods and beneficial bacteria during water changes have been a success for me in the past too.
 
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Indiana Jones

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Ryan @ BRS performed a series of experiments regarding biome cycling, summed up at a presentation he gave at Reefapalooza NY.

Give this a watch (it's also available as a podcast):

I actually did watch this. My understanding is copepods can be very effective, and that introducing that right biodiversity is important with something like AF Life Source. I could be wrong, but I thought Microbacter7 is similar for the biodiversity? This speech was good timing for me, because i havent turned my lights on yet.
 
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Indiana Jones

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I avoid overfeeding and run an oversized UV to help control certain algae. Start your photo period from 6-8 hours and slowly increase over a couple months.

Copepods and beneficial bacteria during water changes have been a success for me in the past too.
Thanks for the feedback.
How would you recommend establishing copepods in an E170? I don't have a sump or refugium. I would basically have to have them in the DT. Also, what kind of beneficial bacteria do you use?
 

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Hi,

I am looking for a good path going forward for a successful reef tank. I am a new reefer, my tank is an E-170, and only about 2.5 months old now. I started with Dry rock, live sand, and Dr Tim's One and Only. Currently have 2 clown fish, and 1 starry blenny. I plan to add a wrasse of somekind, aiptasia filefish, and possibly a small tang in the future. I have gotten most of my information from the BRStv - 5 minute guide videos. I just watched Ryan's speech at the NY Reef Palooza on Biome Cycling, and thought this topic was great timing for my reef keeping journey. I realize they have not released the series yet on YouTube, but I'd like to ask a couple questions to the community.

My biggest concern is the ugly stage. My lights have been off, and plan to keep them off for the initial 4 months. Once they go on, I know that the uglies will start, but I don't really have a proactive measure in place to overcome them. Whats the best way to overcome the ugly stage?

Cyano
: Is there something I can do to proactively keep this away? I have been keeping somewhat consistent maintenance with 10% water changes weekly. I feed the fish every other day, so I don't think im over feeding. If it does appear I know I could dose a product, but as Ryan mentioned in his speech I'd like to have something in place to handle it naturally with out human intervention. Is this where a product like AF Life Source, or Microbacter7 comes into play?

Green Algae: I am not too concerned about green algae, because of the utilitarian fish and keeping lights off for 4 months.

Dinos: It sounds like if you get Dinos copepods would be the best predator to counter it. Can I cultivate a copepod colony in a E170 with no refugium? Or put something in the media rack to house them if necessary?

Is dosing something like Microbacter7 a couple months before lights go on a good solution to establish the biodiversity? Or AF Life Source better?


Thanks in advance for any feedback.
@Lasse has a protocol. He wrote an article about starting a new aquarium. Besides Lasse’s approach, I think the hobby is still struggling to understand and control nuisance microorganism growth.
 

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Here are my recommondations:

Cyano: nitrate >2ppm, phosphate < 0.1ppm

Dino: phosphate > 0.02ppm

Green algae: predation, phosphate <0.1ppm. Every healthy tank should be able to grow algae. Predation should be the main limiting factor.

As for "diversity," the most poorly defined term in the hobby, you will get that with corals, snails, fish, crabs, etc. For some reason it has become popular in the hobby to think that live rock is the only place that microbial diversity can come from. This is not true.

If aquabiomics ever gets their rock or sand back in stock, a pinch of that would be nice. If you go with standard ocean live rock, you will have to deal with a whole list of other issues.


Microbacter 7 is a mix of cycling, heterotrophic, and anaerobic bacteria. Microbacter clean would be the better choice as something to continually dose (or waste away gel) in a new tank. I also like pns probio as this bacteria seems like it can compete in a wide variety of niches. AF Life source sounds like it would be good, but I question how "live" a bunch of bagged up mud is.
 

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Hi,

I am looking for a good path going forward for a successful reef tank. I am a new reefer, my tank is an E-170, and only about 2.5 months old now. I started with Dry rock, live sand, and Dr Tim's One and Only. Currently have 2 clown fish, and 1 starry blenny. I plan to add a wrasse of somekind, aiptasia filefish, and possibly a small tang in the future. I have gotten most of my information from the BRStv - 5 minute guide videos. I just watched Ryan's speech at the NY Reef Palooza on Biome Cycling, and thought this topic was great timing for my reef keeping journey. I realize they have not released the series yet on YouTube, but I'd like to ask a couple questions to the community.

My biggest concern is the ugly stage. My lights have been off, and plan to keep them off for the initial 4 months. Once they go on, I know that the uglies will start, but I don't really have a proactive measure in place to overcome them. Whats the best way to overcome the ugly stage?

Cyano
: Is there something I can do to proactively keep this away? I have been keeping somewhat consistent maintenance with 10% water changes weekly. I feed the fish every other day, so I don't think im over feeding. If it does appear I know I could dose a product, but as Ryan mentioned in his speech I'd like to have something in place to handle it naturally with out human intervention. Is this where a product like AF Life Source, or Microbacter7 comes into play?

Green Algae: I am not too concerned about green algae, because of the utilitarian fish and keeping lights off for 4 months.

Dinos: It sounds like if you get Dinos copepods would be the best predator to counter it. Can I cultivate a copepod colony in a E170 with no refugium? Or put something in the media rack to house them if necessary?

Is dosing something like Microbacter7 a couple months before lights go on a good solution to establish the biodiversity? Or AF Life Source better?


Thanks in advance for any feedback.
I used live rock from Florida shipped wet that I picked up from the airport,I let them cycle in a bin in my barn to remove pests for 76 days,kept parameters up and used dry sand,I put the rock in the new tank,immediately added pods and dosed Phyto and microbactor clean,I have maybe 10 snails total a fighting conch and an urchin,haven’t changed the water yet
240 gallon
 
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Indiana Jones

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Here are my recommondations:

Cyano: nitrate >2ppm, phosphate < 0.1ppm

Dino: phosphate > 0.02ppm

Green algae: predation, phosphate <0.1ppm. Every healthy tank should be able to grow algae. Predation should be the main limiting factor.

As for "diversity," the most poorly defined term in the hobby, you will get that with corals, snails, fish, crabs, etc. For some reason it has become popular in the hobby to think that live rock is the only place that microbial diversity can come from. This is not true.

If aquabiomics ever gets their rock or sand back in stock, a pinch of that would be nice. If you go with standard ocean live rock, you will have to deal with a whole list of other issues.


Microbacter 7 is a mix of cycling, heterotrophic, and anaerobic bacteria. Microbacter clean would be the better choice as something to continually dose (or waste away gel) in a new tank. I also like pns probio as this bacteria seems like it can compete in a wide variety of niches. AF Life source sounds like it would be good, but I question how "live" a bunch of bagged up mud is.
I didn't realize diversity came from fish, snails etc. Good to know. Thanks for the advice on Micobacter clean.
 

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I didn't realize diversity came from fish, snails etc. Good to know. Thanks for the advice on Micobacter clean.


I think the issue is with defining diversity. If we are refering to microbes (protists, coralline algaes, etc.), yes all of these (albeit no coralline algae with fish) will bring those in. If we are talking about zooplankton, yes coral can bring this but dipping corals is recommended.

Ocean rock has protists, zooplankton, bacteria, archaea worms, good algaes, and often crabs, urchins, cucumbers, mantis shrimps, and possibly vermatids, bubble algae, etc. This comes back to the idea of how much control do you want over what enters your tank. The best solution imo is what aquabiomics offers with their sand and rock but they have been out every time I have checked. Maybe @AquaBiomics can chime in on if they might get some back in soon.
 

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