Biota regal angel, yes or no?

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Majolica15

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Lol. I’m not going to share it. You can challenge me but I can’t challenge you? Have a nice evening. I hope your injury gets better. I know how that can be from personal experience.
There was no challenge. Please don't put words into my mouth. I say EXACTLY what I mean, and mean exactly what I say. Just the way I am. I simply pointed out that there are many possible causes for color differences, and that MAY be the reason the breeders are stating that it isn't predictable. I even mentioned that I don't know, since I haven't done the requisite research. You mentioned several times in the thread that two yellow bellied regals HAD to produce 100% yellow bellied offspring, based on [entirely unnamed] science. Since you have sources, it sure would be nice to view those. It didn't seem that way to me, based on the fact that you didn't reference them to begin with, so that was why I commented.

I do appreciate the well wishes. And I still think the information about white markings in foals is interesting! Genetics, as a whole, is a fascinating topic. These are, genetically, all the same horse.
 

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Cheese Griller

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There was no challenge. Please don't put words into my mouth. I say EXACTLY what I mean, and mean exactly what I say. Just the way I am. I simply pointed out that there are many possible causes for color differences, and that MAY be the reason the breeders are stating that it isn't predictable. I even mentioned that I don't know, since I haven't done the requisite research. You mentioned several times in the thread that two yellow bellied regals HAD to produce 100% yellow bellied offspring, based on [entirely unnamed] science. Since you have sources, it sure would be nice to view those. It didn't seem that way to me, based on the fact that you didn't reference them to begin with, so that was why I commented.

I do appreciate the well wishes. And I still think the information about white markings in foals is interesting! Genetics, as a whole, is a fascinating topic. These are, genetically, all the same horse.
I believe I found the study they are referencing, which can be found here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790316300392

After a quick read, the results are actually pretty interesting. The study splits regals into 4 lineages, a pacific, red sea, and two lineages that are in the indian ocean. Through genetic analysis, the pacific lineage is the oldest, with the red sea lineage being slightly younger. The study does not make it clear that the pacific ocean lineage colonized the red sea, which has led to red sea regals, but "The Pacific lineage is 215 0.6% divergent from the Red Sea lineage and 1.2% and 1.5% from Indian lineage 1 and 2, 216 respectively. The Red Sea lineage is 0.6% divergent from Indian lineage 1 and 1.0% from Indian 217 lineage 2, and the two Indian lineages are distinguished by 1.5% divergence." this indicates that the red sea lineage is just as closely related to the pacific lineage and one of the indian ocean lineages, who also have yellow bellies. These results actually reinforce the idea that there may be grey-bellied genetics in the red sea population, as they are the closely related to their grey-bellied pacific counterparts. As far as I read, however, there is no discussion of any genetic analysis of these populations and color, so any claims about their genetics are purely speculative until more definitive research is done. @bruno3047, is this the study you were referencing?
 
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bruno3047

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I believe I found the study they are referencing, which can be found here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790316300392

After a quick read, the results are actually pretty interesting. The study splits regals into 4 lineages, a pacific, red sea, and two lineages that are in the indian ocean. Through genetic analysis, the pacific lineage is the oldest, with the red sea lineage being slightly younger. The study does not make it clear that the pacific ocean lineage colonized the red sea, which has led to red sea regals, but "The Pacific lineage is 215 0.6% divergent from the Red Sea lineage and 1.2% and 1.5% from Indian lineage 1 and 2, 216 respectively. The Red Sea lineage is 0.6% divergent from Indian lineage 1 and 1.0% from Indian 217 lineage 2, and the two Indian lineages are distinguished by 1.5% divergence." this indicates that the red sea lineage is just as closely related to the pacific lineage and one of the indian ocean lineages, who also have yellow bellies. These results actually reinforce the idea that there may be grey-bellied genetics in the red sea population, as they are the closely related to their grey-bellied pacific counterparts. As far as I read, however, there is no discussion of any genetic analysis of these populations and color, so any claims about their genetics are purely speculative until more definitive research is done. @bruno3047, is this the study you were referencing?
This is the study. Nice scholarship. However, you’re reading it all wrong. Perhaps a “quick read“ was inadequate. Try again. If you’re still unable to see how the yellow-belly Red Sea morph was the basis for the yellow belly Indian Ocean morph, come back and I’ll explain. Of course, this is just an abstract. In order to fully understand the depths of the study you will need to read the entire PDF. However, there is enough information in this abstract to deduce that the Red Sea was the source of the gene pool which produced the yellow bellied morph and the Pacific Ocean was the source of the gene pool which produced the gray bellied morph. Btw. The chances of you pulling a gray belly Regal Angelfish out of the Red Sea is still Nil. If you’re interested in reading the entire PDF, post back and I’ll post the link.
 
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bruno3047

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I believe I found the study they are referencing, which can be found here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790316300392

After a quick read, the results are actually pretty interesting. The study splits regals into 4 lineages, a pacific, red sea, and two lineages that are in the indian ocean. Through genetic analysis, the pacific lineage is the oldest, with the red sea lineage being slightly younger. The study does not make it clear that the pacific ocean lineage colonized the red sea, which has led to red sea regals, but "The Pacific lineage is 215 0.6% divergent from the Red Sea lineage and 1.2% and 1.5% from Indian lineage 1 and 2, 216 respectively. The Red Sea lineage is 0.6% divergent from Indian lineage 1 and 1.0% from Indian 217 lineage 2, and the two Indian lineages are distinguished by 1.5% divergence." this indicates that the red sea lineage is just as closely related to the pacific lineage and one of the indian ocean lineages, who also have yellow bellies. These results actually reinforce the idea that there may be grey-bellied genetics in the red sea population, as they are the closely related to their grey-bellied pacific counterparts. As far as I read, however, there is no discussion of any genetic analysis of these populations and color, so any claims about their genetics are purely speculative until more definitive research is done. @bruno3047, is this the study you were referencing?
“The Pacific lineage is 215 0.6% divergent from the Red Sea lineage and 1.2% and 1.5% from Indian lineage 1 and 2, 216 respectively. The Red Sea lineage is 0.6% divergent from Indian lineage 1 and 1.0% from Indian 217 lineage 2, and the two Indian lineages are distinguished by 1.5% divergence." this indicates that the red sea lineage is just as closely related to the pacific lineage and one of the indian ocean lineages, who also have yellow bellies. These results actually reinforce the idea that there may be grey-bellied genetics in the red sea population, as they are the closely related to their grey-bellied pacific counterparts.”

Wrong. This just means that they are one and the same species. Has nothing to do with coloration. In order for a species to be considered separate and distinct, science requires a 2% divergence in genetic make up.
 

Cheese Griller

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This is the study. Nice scholarship. However, you’re reading it all wrong. Perhaps a “quick read“ was inadequate. Try again. If you’re still unable to see how the yellow-belly Red Sea morph was the basis for the yellow belly Indian Ocean morph, come back and I’ll explain. Of course, this is just an abstract. In order to fully understand the depths of the study you will need to read the entire PDF. However, there is enough information in this abstract to deduce that the Red Sea was the source of the gene pool which produced the yellow bellied morph and the Pacific Ocean was the source of the gene pool which produced the gray bellied morph. Btw. The chances of you pulling a gray belly Regal Angelfish out of the Red Sea is still Nil. If you’re interested in reading the entire PDF, post back and I’ll post the link.
wasn't debating the fact that the red sea morh seeded the population for the indian ocean morph, rather I was suggesting that, based on age, the pacific ocean population is the oldest, and therefore may have seeded the red sea population. This is reinforced by the relative relatedness of the pacific and red sea populations as compared to the second indian ocean lineage. If this assumption holds true, then by default there is a chance that there are grey bellied genes in the red sea population, whether or not they are expressed phenotypically. Interesting tidbit about the 2% threshold for species differentiation though. Never knew there was a number to determine that!
 
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bruno3047

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Meanwhile I'm still waiting for @bruno3047 's first batch of regals. Hoping they are the real Slim Shaddy.
Ain’t gonna happen. I have neither the will, the money, or the time. I appreciate you thinking so highly of me though. Have a nice day.
 
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bruno3047

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wasn't debating the fact that the red sea morh seeded the population for the indian ocean morph, rather I was suggesting that, based on age, the pacific ocean population is the oldest, and therefore may have seeded the red sea population. This is reinforced by the relative relatedness of the pacific and red sea populations as compared to the second indian ocean lineage. If this assumption holds true, then by default there is a chance that there are grey bellied genes in the red sea population, whether or not they are expressed phenotypically. Interesting tidbit about the 2% threshold for species differentiation though. Never knew there was a number to determine that!
What the study found was that during the glacial age there was a long enough period of time where the Red Sea was separated from the Pacific Ocean so that a separate and distinct sub species of pygoplites with a yellow belly instead of a gray belly was developed. Since then, other geophysical forces, such as ocean currents, have prevented the two from blending on a wide scale basis.
 
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bruno3047

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wasn't debating the fact that the red sea morh seeded the population for the indian ocean morph, rather I was suggesting that, based on age, the pacific ocean population is the oldest, and therefore may have seeded the red sea population. This is reinforced by the relative relatedness of the pacific and red sea populations as compared to the second indian ocean lineage. If this assumption holds true, then by default there is a chance that there are grey bellied genes in the red sea population, whether or not they are expressed phenotypically. Interesting tidbit about the 2% threshold for species differentiation though. Never knew there was a number to determine that!
Another thing I found interesting was that they determined the Pacific morph to be older than the Red Sea morph. The gray belly of the Pacific morph is not actually a color at all, but rather the lack of color. It just seemed that a species losing coloration in a part of their body over time is easier than a species gaining coloration in a part of the body.
 
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Cheese Griller

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Another thing I found interesting was that they determined the Pacific morph to be older than the Red Sea morph. The gray belly of the Pacific morph is not actually a color at all, but rather the lack of color. It just seemed that a species losing coloration in a part of their body is easier than a species gaining coloration in a part of the body.
how interesting! thanks for shedding the light on that. If only we could figure out why it's happening. I think that goes back to what one of the other members was saying about how coloration is not always genetic. and in this case, especially with the pacific ocean losing the color over time, this may be true for regals. Maybe there is something in the diet or water conditions that is lacking in the pacific? until we find out I wouldn't be too hasty to claim that any fish breeding will produce a certain color. Especially with what we see in some other fish species that have been collected as one color and slowly transition to another (think aberrant tangs and angels) for no discernable reason, this just exhibits how we still don't know everything about why fish develop the colors they do. IIRC the steinhart aquarium had some larger surgeonfish that were developing odd colors and they were trying to figure out why, I don't remember if the article I saw came to any distinct conclusion though.
 

bruno3047

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how interesting! thanks for shedding the light on that. If only we could figure out why it's happening. I think that goes back to what one of the other members was saying about how coloration is not always genetic. and in this case, especially with the pacific ocean losing the color over time, this may be true for regals. Maybe there is something in the diet or water conditions that is lacking in the pacific? until we find out I wouldn't be too hasty to claim that any fish breeding will produce a certain color. Especially with what we see in some other fish species that have been collected as one color and slowly transition to another (think aberrant tangs and angels) for no discernable reason, this just exhibits how we still don't know everything about why fish develop the colors they do. IIRC the steinhart aquarium had some larger surgeonfish that were developing odd colors and they were trying to figure out why, I don't remember if the article I saw came to any distinct conclusion though.
Well if you want to go into those weeds, Google coelecanth. This is a species that literally came back from the dead. Science thought this was an extinct species for over 50 million years, until a fisherman caught one off the coast of South Africa in 1938. Since then others have been caught and the species is now no longer considered extinct. (Duh) The ocean is truly the last frontier.
 
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