Blue Hippo Tang HiTH

[piranhaman00]

Are these markings normal? On both sides of face, I see it in pictures of hippos often.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hepatus tangs get two issues: classic HLLE, with deep pitting, and then a milder fading that I call epithelial thinning. Your fish seems to have the latter, with just a couple of possible classic HLLE spots. The true HLLE is often caused by carbon use, while the thinning has unknown cause(s) and may be related more to diet and water quality. I have a group of hepatus tangs that developed this thinning after being problem free for five years, I’m at a loss to say why. Watch your pomacanthus angel, they get HLLE fairly often, but not the thinning. One thing about the thinning; it seems more visible under certain lighting, I can really see it in flash pictures.

Jay

 

[jda]

Varied diet including PE Mysis and some high quality pellets like New Life Spectrum, can really help. Fatty acids, vitamin E were essential and we use ZOE and Selcon, but you can get these in foods now. You might never get those to go away, but you want to keep them from spreading.

 

[piranhaman00]

Hepatus tangs get two issues: classic HLLE, with deep pitting, and then a milder fading that I call epithelial thinning. Your fish seems to have the latter, with just a couple of possible classic HLLE spots. The true HLLE is often caused by carbon use, while the thinning has unknown cause(s) and may be related more to diet and water quality. I have a group of hepatus tangs that developed this thinning after being problem free for five years, I’m at a loss to say why. Watch your pomacanthus angel, they get HLLE fairly often, but not the thinning. One thing about the thinning; it seems more visible under certain lighting, I can really see it in flash pictures.

Jay

I thought the carbon issue was when using poor quality carbon, I literally started using carbon on this tank today ugh. What’s the thought on that?


Otherwise sounds good thanks.

Varied diet including PE Mysis and some high quality pellets like New Life Spectrum, can really help. Fatty acids, vitamin E were essential and we use ZOE and Selcon, but you can get these in foods now. You might never get those to go away, but you want to keep them from spreading.

Yes she had them when I got her and it hasn’t improved or gotten worse

 

[jda]

I have used carbon for a lot of years (all kinds) and never had any issues with HLLE. The most prominent mini-study that identified carbon as a possible source for HLLE used a surgeonfish that is not well suited for captivity, so the study was nearly always seen as flawed from the get-go. The rest are mostly anecdotes where some people think that carbon was an issue and some, like me, who have used it for years with no issues.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I thought the carbon issue was when using poor quality carbon, I literally started using carbon on this tank today ugh. What’s the thought on that?


Otherwise sounds good thanks.




Yes she had them when I got her and it hasn’t improved or gotten worse

What brand of carbon are you using? Remember, the fish could have been exposed to carbon before you acquired it, or past carbon use in your tank may have left residual dust that can still affect new fish.
Jay

 

[piranhaman00]

What brand of carbon are you using? Remember, the fish could have been exposed to carbon before you acquired it, or past carbon use in your tank may have left residual dust that can still affect new fish.
Jay

BRS rox 0.8, this tank has never seen carbon before but yes previous fish life not sure

 

[Biff0rz]

@Jay Hemdal You mentioned carbon use in one of my threads as well with tangs. How often / what % are you seeing hlle issues with carbon use? I'm using carbon on my display in a brs reactor, but these comments are making me hesitant to use it period, hah.

 

[piranhaman00]

@Jay Hemdal You mentioned carbon use in one of my threads as well with tangs. How often / what % are you seeing hlle issues with carbon use? I'm using carbon on my display in a brs reactor, but these comments are making me hesitant to use it period, hah.

From my understanding it’s from the fine particles of poor quality carbon. Using good carbon, rox 0.8 is considered the best, you will be fine, make sure carbon is not tumbling

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have used carbon for a lot of years (all kinds) and never had any issues with HLLE. The most prominent mini-study that identified carbon as a possible source for HLLE used a surgeonfish that is not well suited for captivity, so the study was nearly always seen as flawed from the get-go. The rest are mostly anecdotes where some people think that carbon was an issue and some, like me, who have used it for years with no issues.

Actually, that was my study, plus another one by Dr Stamper at Disney that was published a month before mine, same results. I added some additional information and posted it in an article here.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal You mentioned carbon use in one of my threads as well with tangs. How often / what % are you seeing hlle issues with carbon use? I'm using carbon on my display in a brs reactor, but these comments are making me hesitant to use it period, hah.

Just don’t use soft carbon, especially in a reactor.
Jay

 

[piranhaman00]

Just don’t use soft carbon, especially in a reactor.
Jay

What is the best carbon? Concensus seems to be rox 0.8

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, I’ve not heard any issues with that carbon.
Jay

 

[jda]

Actually, that was my study, plus another one by Dr Stamper at Disney that was published a month before mine, same results. I added some additional information and posted it in an article here.
Jay

Have you thought about conducting the study with fish that are suitable for aquarium life? I have not read the recent article, and actually have not read the original since before it disappeared for free many years ago, so my apologies if you addressed this. It always seemed to me like this is like doing a diabetes study in humans, but making them live in tree branches while doing it.

I have used ROX, but I prefer lignite carbon since it polishes better. I have some 15 year old tangs and angelfish that show no signs of HLLE. I will see if I can get the to hold still to take some photos. These fish are Chocolate Tang, Purple Tang and Watanabei Angelfish - all of which make excellent aquarium pets.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Is it possibly the quantity, not just the quality of carbon used that increases the chances of HLLE?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Have you thought about conducting the study with fish that are suitable for aquarium life? I have not read the recent article, and actually have not read the original since before it disappeared for free many years ago, so my apologies if you addressed this. It always seemed to me like this is like doing a diabetes study in humans, but making them live in tree branches while doing it.

I have used ROX, but I prefer lignite carbon since it polishes better. I have some 15 year old tangs and angelfish that show no signs of HLLE. I will see if I can get the to hold still to take some photos. These fish are Chocolate Tang, Purple Tang and Watanabei Angelfish - all of which make excellent aquarium pets.

Ocean surgeons are a great model and have been used in four studies that I know of. They are a staple for public aquariums. They grow too large for most home aquariums, and are REALLY ugly, but other than that, are perfect for these sorts of studies.

Did you get a chance to read my article here? It offers more information than the original study did, including hypothesis for why HLLE isn’t seen with some carbon use.
Jay

 

[jda]

I just put the article and your new thoughts on my list. I do appreciate you doing all of this and taking the time. I really do want to read it.

I disagree about A. Bahianus being a model fish for anything related to hobby uses. They are a hard fish to keep in an aquarium. Even if they are a model for something, why only the one type? Why not fish that take to captivity with high success rate? They are not all that ugly, either - I like them. Your only hope is to get a nice small one that is not handled too much and hope that it takes to food - net caught from a small collector and direct ship is the easiest way. I have one right now and it is too early to tell how it will far long term since it is only about 2 inches. I do use carbon on occasion. I would feel better about this if there was more types of home aquarium suitable fish that were used in subsequent studies because it is just as likely that the A. Bahianus is just a sensitive fish that needs the care of a public aquarium as it is that HLLE was caused by carbon. If you want to conclude that carbon should be carefully used in public aquaria, then cool. This is not far from saying that using carbon is why Rock Beauties never eat... just not a good choice of fish. Sorry for being all over the place...

I have argued for a long time with Dana about doing studies on Porites and assuming that they translate to other types of SPS. Nobody keeps Proites and when they do, they stuff is like a weed, it is so easy to keep with any basic competence. I think that he saw my point after a while and I offered to send him actual acropora that people keep if he wanted to do any more testing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is it possibly the quantity, not just the quality of carbon used that increases the chances of HLLE?

Probably. In our study, we used a referenced amount of carbon per tank volume (from Spotte) and that amount happened to correlate with how much carbon I would typically use in a study tank of that size. My computer is down, so I can’t get you the exact numbers. My assumption would be if we cut the carbon amount, either the severity of the HLLE would be lessened, or the time to develop symptoms would have lengthened.
Many home aquarists “spot use” carbon- add it for a specific result, then remove it.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I just put the article and your new thoughts on my list. I do appreciate you doing all of this and taking the time. I really do want to read it.

I disagree about A. Bahianus being a model fish for anything related to hobby uses. They are a hard fish to keep in an aquarium. Even if they are a model for something, why only the one type? Why not fish that take to captivity with high success rate? They are not all that ugly, either - I like them. Your only hope is to get a nice small one that is not handled too much and hope that it takes to food - net caught from a small collector and direct ship is the easiest way. I have one right now and it is too early to tell how it will far long term since it is only about 2 inches. I do use carbon on occasion. I would feel better about this if there was more types of home aquarium suitable fish that were used in subsequent studies because it is just as likely that the A. Bahianus is just a sensitive fish that needs the care of a public aquarium as it is that HLLE was caused by carbon. If you want to conclude that carbon should be carefully used in public aquaria, then cool. This is not far from saying that using carbon is why Rock Beauties never eat... just not a good choice of fish. Sorry for being all over the place...

I have argued for a long time with Dana about doing studies on Porites and assuming that they translate to other types of SPS. Nobody keeps Proites and when they do, they stuff is like a weed, it is so easy to keep with any basic competence. I think that he saw my point after a while and I offered to send him actual acropora that people keep if he wanted to do any more testing.

Tell you what, after you’ve read the article, you can post to the discussion there. You should also at least read the abstract of Andy Stamper’s paper. Additionally, look for some papers by Dr. Francis-Floyd. She did some studies on HLLE and diet.

Jay