Blue Reef Chromis splotches

Best Fish-Jake · Jun 15, 2017

So I've had a group of 3 BRC for 2 weeks now and the smallest of which has some brown coloration on its left side above the anal fin. It also has a slight abrasion to its right gill which doesn't seem to be bothersome.

I'm fairly sure these are just wounds from picking at each other but I want a 2nd opinion. They were initially in a group of 4 but 1 of the medium sized chromis was getting curious about the power head I have in there... When I bought them, all but the largest had the same brown splotches on their sides.

It is very difficult to get clear pictures of these guys in my 46 quarantine so I do apologize for those

(these pics are of the smallest chromis)

Best Fish-Jake · Jun 15, 2017

They are all eating like pigs as well as the solarensis wrasse I have in with them (who is visibly completely healthy)

Maritimer · Jun 15, 2017

Do the brown blotches seem to be going away, then?

Are you currently treating them with anything?

~Bruce, who can't quite make out more than ... yeah, there's a spot there . . .

ngoodermuth · Jun 15, 2017

I cant really make anything out in the photos. Do the splotches look like "sores" or just discolored?

Best Fish-Jake · Jun 15, 2017

Maritimer said:
Do the brown blotches seem to be going away, then?

Are you currently treating them with anything?

~Bruce, who can't quite make out more than ... yeah, there's a spot there . . .

On the remaining medium sized one, it appears to have gotten smaller.. on the smallest chromis I havn't seen a change besides that abrasion.

They're not being treated with anything at the moment.. I only have kanaplex on hand for medication.

melypr1985 · Jun 15, 2017

With all chromis that develop areas like this, I tend to automatically jump to metroplex + kanaplex as treatment. I treat with this for all chromis that come through the store now. It doesn't always work, but it works more often then not treating at all.

I can't see anything in the pictures either - at least not clearly enough to give a diagnosis. Chromis are prone to uronema and bacterial infections both. This is why I treat all chromis with those two meds right off the bat at the shop.

Humblefish · Jun 15, 2017

Take a look at this thread (with pics): http://lareefclub.com/community/threads/chromis-and-gobies-and-more-gobies-oh-my.47013/

Local forum member is having a similar issue.

Best Fish-Jake · Jun 16, 2017

I was able to get a good look at them with the lights off while they weren't darting all over the tank.. the spotting almost looks like they're missing a few scales

I was mistaken when I said that they were brown spots, they're actually white (must've caught the light weird). I'm not seeing any other puffiness, rotting, or discoloration

Here are some MUCH better pics

melypr1985 · Jun 16, 2017

I want to share with you my recent experience with these blue reef chromis. I ordered in about 25 of them. I put them straight into treatment with copper and metroplex. I fed them about 15 times a day -no kidding- small amounts of small foods. They all did amazingly! I didn't lose a single one. I had them for a month or more and never lost a single one. I sold a few and every single person called to say they died within a week or two of purchase. I had put a group of 5 into my display at work and lost one at a time over the course of a week. They were still being fed multiple times a day, but not near as often as 15. I'm still not sure why this happened since I took every precaution with them and they had done so well. I can only say, that this is exactly what they looked like right before they would go missing. I'm still thinking either uronema or bacterial infection. In your case and in mine.

Best Fish-Jake · Jun 16, 2017

(I'm not very familiar with uronema) if it is the early stages of uronema, what do you reccomend for treatment? Should I isolate the ones showing symptoms away from my healthy (looking) solarensis wrasse? My other options for further isolation are: a 5 gal bucket w/ a heater and air stone, or a 10g fishless reef. @melypr1985

melypr1985 · Jun 16, 2017

Best Fish-Jake said:
(I'm not very familiar with uronema) if it is the early stages of uronema, what do you reccomend for treatment? Should I isolate the ones showing symptoms away from my healthy (looking) solarensis wrasse? My other options for further isolation are: a 5 gal bucket w/ a heater and air stone, or a 10g fishless reef. @melypr1985

Uronema isn't fully understood. We have found some treatments that help with it, but that don't always work 100%. Metroplex has been found to help and copper has too. That's why I did both with my group. It seems that once they were removed from it though, they were vulnerable again. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

Humblefish · Jun 16, 2017

Meredith, did you food soak metro as well? Just wondering if uronema was growing internally with those chromis. Or cyanide poisoning could be to blame if they were all collected together.

clsanchez77 · Jun 16, 2017

Hey everyone. I am the originator of the post Dr. Fish linked above. I have a particular interest in Atlantic Blue Chromis and have been dealing with exactly this same issue.

I was in this hobby many many years ago, when QT was not a standard protocol. I would isolate new fish for 30 days of observation and then introduce them to the DT. It was a 90 gallon at the time. I maintained 7 Blue Chromis, introduced in two batches, for roughly 3 years, say about 2005-2008. I started with 9 from memory, lost one in observation and one from jumping. There were no treatments and no observable illnesses.

Fast forward today and I am pulling my hair out. I am using QT methods in close coordination with Humblefish over at LARC and am on my 2nd batch.

My first batch was a total loss; it was 4 small Atlantic Blue Chromis What I have learned is my particular supplier is maintaining sub-therapeutic levels of ionic copper in his holding tank, which makes the fish appear well. Once introduced to a clean QT, after a day copper free, velvet breaks out (originally diagnosed is ich). I dosed Cupramine to 130% recommended levels and held it for 30 days with no other medication. All four fish survived. Upon completion of copper, the fish developed the brown patches and started to die, smallest to largest. Our theories were Uronema concurrent with the velvet and/or secondary bacterial infection. I prepared a frozen food blend with Seachem Focus and Metroplex with no improvement. I started to straight dose the tank with Metroplex but still no improvement. Eventually I saved one fish, but the one fish did not recover 100% in his behavior or appearance. The little fighter gave out around the 60 day mark.
The details are here: http://lareefclub.com/community/threads/the-blue-chromis-qt-journal.46559/ You will see a lot of confusion in this thread and Bobby and I exchanged notes and struggled to diagnose the issue. Most of my diagnoses is now after the fact and in coordination with Bobby.

I am in my second batch now. The order was replaced at no cost by the supplier to include 3 small Atlantic Blue Chromis and 2 medium. The supplier indicated his chromis holding tanks were emptied, sterilized and then restocked with newly captured specimen. The new fish arrived clean and healthy. I did two treatments of prazipro before any signs appeared. After a week, velvet broke out. This time, copper dosage was via CopperSafe at therapeutic levels for 10 days and concurrently dosed Metroplex and concurrently fed my frozen food prepared with focus and metroplex. During this time, now I was looking for the blotches and started to notice them. Smaller fish were lost due to appetite suppression. One larger one was lost for unknown reasons. Two survived and made a tank transfer. Methylene Blue dips were performed 3 times to observe any changes on the skin patches, including during the tank transfer. No changes were noted for better or worse. At tank transfer, copper was discontinued and metroplex with kanaplex was issued in 3 dosages. I am now about a week post medication with no changes in skin appearance. The fish appear fully recovered. Now my biggest concern is I cannot meat dietary needs in a 20 gallon tank. This round is detailed here: http://lareefclub.com/community/threads/chromis-and-gobies-and-more-gobies-oh-my.47013/

Similar to above, I have some assorted small gobies that show no ill effects, which is helping me form my conclusions below.

At this point, I have developed a few theories, potentially conflicting and/or compounding.

Atlantic Blue Chromis are not as copper tolerant as previously thought.
The use of copper is leading to potential organ failure, and/or scarring of the tissue - leading to fluid buildup - based on symptoms being similar to Edema (full credit to Bluewater on that one).
The aggressive and concurrent use of copper, metroplex and kanaplex treatments give my roughly better than 90% confidence that uronema not at play.
The natural social behavior of Atlantic Blue Chromis makes them particularly difficult to treat in the confines of a QT system. The constantly fighting to establish dominance and the acceptance of other chromis is a function of territory and food - both limited in QT.
If bacterial infections are still at play, it is because of item #4 above that they remain a problem.
Items 4 and 5 explain why other fish are not symptomatic.

I am very tempted to move everything to the DT to test my theories. For one, I am at my limit to keeping the QT acceptable to the fish. If they don't kill each other, the ammonia will; I have exhausted a lot of change water on this tank. For two, if I am correct, the DT will give them the space and food sources they need to thrive and I should see improvements. My risk is 4 royal gramma and a red spotted hawkfish; I don't have any "premium" fish. I would also risk introducing Uronema into a 110 gallon reef tank.

At this point I am at a stand still.

Chris

I also want to note that an LFS has also ordered a batch of Atlantic Blue Chromis to experiment with from a different supplier that I have ordered from and he has lost 4 of 6 and has not completed copper treatment yet. This data point, along with my findings has me thinking copper may not be acceptable to these fish.

Humblefish · Jun 16, 2017

@clsanchez77 Glad to see you joined R2R!

clsanchez77 · Jun 16, 2017

Humblefish said:
@clsanchez77 Glad to see you joined R2R!

Yea, yea, you finally talked me into it

clsanchez77 · Jun 16, 2017

btw, I also wanted to mention that of all the chromis I have lost, none of them have bore the red markings indicative of Uronema. Perhaps the deep blue color of the fish masks this or it's not always red in all cases. Rather, the fish decline and begin to list to one side. The blotches for the most part will remain white, but occasionally will darken to a brown before death.

Maritimer · Jun 16, 2017

melypr1985 said:
I want to share with you my recent experience with these blue reef chromis. I ordered in about 25 of them. I put them straight into treatment with copper and metroplex. I fed them about 15 times a day -no kidding- small amounts of small foods. They all did amazingly! I didn't lose a single one. I had them for a month or more and never lost a single one. I sold a few and every single person called to say they died within a week or two of purchase. I had put a group of 5 into my display at work and lost one at a time over the course of a week. They were still being fed multiple times a day, but not near as often as 15. I'm still not sure why this happened since I took every precaution with them and they had done so well. I can only say, that this is exactly what they looked like right before they would go missing. I'm still thinking either uronema or bacterial infection. In your case and in mine.

melypr1985 said:
Uronema isn't fully understood. We have found some treatments that help with it, but that don't always work 100%. Metroplex has been found to help and copper has too. That's why I did both with my group. It seems that once they were removed from it though, they were vulnerable again. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

That's why uronema scares me ... if a fish comes down with it - even if that fish appears to recover, is it ever really "gone"? If a fish recovers in QT, is it ever really safe to move that fellow to the DT? What would be the best way to transfer the fish to the display, while minimizing possible transmission of uronema? Should a drip acclimation include a freshwater, formalin or acriflavin bath? Assuming that standard QT sterilization, post-fish, will clear uronema from the QT?

Clsanchez77 - Welcome to Reef2Reef! I read your thread on the LA forum earlier, interesting and somewhat frightening stuff. I'm sorry for the loss of your chromis, as blue reef chromis have always been one of my favorite marine fish. Just the right combination of brilliant, dark and elegant.

~Bruce, who steadfastly hopes that @Best Fish-Jake's chromis will be the ones to make it through, and provide years of pleasure . . .

jason_mazzy · Jun 16, 2017

melypr1985 said:
I want to share with you my recent experience with these blue reef chromis. I ordered in about 25 of them. I put them straight into treatment with copper and metroplex. I fed them about 15 times a day -no kidding- small amounts of small foods. They all did amazingly! I didn't lose a single one. I had them for a month or more and never lost a single one. I sold a few and every single person called to say they died within a week or two of purchase. I had put a group of 5 into my display at work and lost one at a time over the course of a week. They were still being fed multiple times a day, but not near as often as 15. I'm still not sure why this happened since I took every precaution with them and they had done so well. I can only say, that this is exactly what they looked like right before they would go missing. I'm still thinking either uronema or bacterial infection. In your case and in mine.

it is simply a case of underfeeding IMO. If you treat your chromis like they are anthias they will fend much better. feed often, and feed some more.

ritter6788 · Jun 16, 2017

I've tried these fish numerous times. QT, no QT, different foods, live foods, etc. They will eat like pigs and look perfectly fine and one by one die until they are all gone.

Most of them would get the markings on them like posted above right before they die. Black, red or white marks or just lay over and die.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/blue-reef-chromis-chromis-cyaneus-success-stories.92854/page-2

Humblefish · Jun 16, 2017

I personally find this whole "chromis crisis" situation very bizarre. Back in the day (20+ years ago) we kept large schools of green chromis in just about every client's tank. They were always QTd for 30 days in Coppersafe. I even knew people who used them to cycle tanks.

Admittedly, these weren't the Blue Reef Chromis.

But I didn't even know what uronema was back then and these guys seemed to live for 4-5 years before dying. They were considered just slightly not as hardy as a regular damsel. What has changed??!

Lately, I've QTd some here & there using CP, and only had a few die. But I would usually then just give them away because my wife doesn't like them. So I can't speak of their long-term survival nowadays.