Blue Tang with Marine Ich... I think?

[Elliott ll]

I've come to learn that my Blue Tang is sick. Being new to the hobby I have done as much research as I can reviewing Humblefish's work, but I'd like some advice to confirm my findings... and to also give guidance on how to best handle possible Marine Ich in a new tank (2 months old).

Symptoms: Eating like a pig, no signs of issue other than that she seems a little light blue (stressed) lately, and at first she had these small little internal bumps that were white, but now seems to have a "salt like" substance starting to cover her body. I am seeing it developing on her head, dorsal, and tail fins mainly and it looks like sugar or salt. It is a little stringy... it almost looks like its attached to mucus. I am assuming that it's marine ich falling off? Hope to post better pic when she wakes up.

Stock list:
90 gallon tank + 10 gallon refuge (both likely cursed lol)
Blue & Purple Tang
Melanurus & Red Head Fairy Wrasse
(2) Clowns
Flame Hawk
(10) snails
(5) hermit crabs
urchin
4 pieces of coral (torch & elegance both species thriving)

My LFS (Dallas North Aquarium) suggested a UV Sterlizer and Aqua Solutions Ich-X. The Marine Ich seems to have gone from internal bumps to now showing salt like pieces on her body. I know this is natural cycle but does it mean things are worsening? I am only on day 2 of this treatment. My coral did not like the first treatment but seems to have bounced back fine. However everyone says this product is useless for saltwater, so I'm wondering if I should adjust my course of action?

Any help would be very much appreciated!

 

[blaxsun]

A UV is always a good idea. I've used Polyp Lab Medic to treat ich/velvet in-tank with really good reaults).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've come to learn that my Blue Tang is sick. Being new to the hobby I have done as much research as I can reviewing Humblefish's work, but I'd like some advice to confirm my findings... and to also give guidance on how to best handle possible Marine Ich in a new tank (2 months old).

Symptoms: Eating like a pig, no signs of issue other than that she seems a little light blue (stressed) lately, and at first she had these small little internal bumps that were white, but now seems to have a "salt like" substance starting to cover her body. I am seeing it developing on her head, dorsal, and tail fins mainly and it looks like sugar or salt. It is a little stringy... it almost looks like its attached to mucus. I am assuming that it's marine ich falling off? Hope to post better pic when she wakes up.

Stock list:
90 gallon tank + 10 gallon refuge (both likely cursed lol)
Blue & Purple Tang
Melanurus & Red Head Fairy Wrasse
(2) Clowns
Flame Hawk
(10) snails
(5) hermit crabs
urchin
4 pieces of coral (torch & elegance both species thriving)

My LFS (Dallas North Aquarium) suggested a UV Sterlizer and Aqua Solutions Ich-X. The Marine Ich seems to have gone from internal bumps to now showing salt like pieces on her body. I know this is natural cycle but does it mean things are worsening? I am only on day 2 of this treatment. My coral did not like the first treatment but seems to have bounced back fine. However everyone says this product is useless for saltwater, so I'm wondering if I should adjust my course of action?

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Can you post a short video of the fish? I can't see any spots in the photo.

I would not dose a tank with Ich-X that has corals in it. Ich-X contains formalin and a type of dye related to malachite green. This has been shown over and over again not to work well for marine ich, and is pretty toxic to invertebrates. Likewise, a UV sterilizer only helps limit these infections, it will NOT cure them.

As @blaxsun mentioned, Polyp Lab Medic can be used in your display, as can Ruby Reef Rally Pro, however the results of either of those is definitely poor with moderate to severe infections. The best treatment, is unfortunately very tough to do: moving all of the fish to a treatment tank with copper and then leaving your display fishless for 45 to 76 days.

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Can you post a short video of the fish? I can't see any spots in the photo.

I would not dose a tank with Ich-X that has corals in it. Ich-X contains formalin and a type of dye related to malachite green. This has been shown over and over again not to work well for marine ich, and is pretty toxic to invertebrates. Likewise, a UV sterilizer only helps limit these infections, it will NOT cure them.

As @blaxsun mentioned, Polyp Lab Medic can be used in your display, as can Ruby Reef Rally Pro, however the results of either of those is definitely poor with moderate to severe infections. The best treatment, is unfortunately very tough to do: moving all of the fish to a treatment tank with copper and then leaving your display fishless for 45 to 76 days.

Jay

I wasnt able to get a video but here is a picture. I will upload another one today showing the massive progression in last 24 hours. My tang is now COVERED... I feel awful. I have a 50 gallon tank available to rent for 3 months... is this big enough to go "fallow" for 76 days with 10 fish? They amount to less than 45 inches in combined length.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I wasnt able to get a video but here is a picture. I will upload another one today showing the massive progression in last 24 hours. My tang is now COVERED... I feel awful. I have a 50 gallon tank available to rent for 3 months... is this big enough to go "fallow" for 76 days with 10 fish? They amount to less than 45 inches in combined length.

Yes - that's marine ich. If the fish now has more spots than in this picture, you need to get a treatment start ASAP. I can't say if the 50 gallon will be large enough, it depends on how strong/well established the biofilter is, and how much open swimming room the tank has. Seems like your only option though....get them into copper right away, get to a full dose by dosing 1/2 the amount, and then a few hours later to allow for mixing, testing to ensure you are at 1/2, and then add the second half amount and test a second time.

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

Yes - that's marine ich. If the fish now has more spots than in this picture, you need to get a treatment start ASAP. I can't say if the 50 gallon will be large enough, it depends on how strong/well established the biofilter is, and how much open swimming room the tank has. Seems like your only option though....get them into copper right away, get to a full dose by dosing 1/2 the amount, and then a few hours later to allow for mixing, testing to ensure you are at 1/2, and then add the second half amount and test a second time.

Jay

My DT is just a couple months old. I plan to rent a QT for 90 days. So basically I'm taking a somewhat newly established biofilter and diluting it further with a new tank. My plan is to perform a 50% water change for DT and send that water over to the new QT. I have 2 sock filters. I plan on replacing 1 sock filter with a new, and hanging the dirty sock filter in the QT to help establish biofilter. I'll also add in 4 ozs of Turbostart 900. Does this sound like a good plan or make adjustments? I wanted to give the QT a few days to run as well before diving in, but it sounds like you're advising to not wait.

I'm incredibly nervous about putting all fish thru copper treatment knowing some like blue tangs dont do well with it, but I'm not skilled enough to perform a TTM. I have a great peaceful community I was able to collect and every fish seems special to me already. I just hope I save more lives than I hurt by making this move. But it appears its the only way to save the inflicted.

 

[blaxsun]

@Jay Hemdal is giving you solid advice. Best of luck with your treatment.

You take a risk either way (treating in QT or in-tank). I should note that being in Canada we also have very limited access to medications (including copper), as they were all banned a few years ago (long story, don't ask) - so Polyp Lab Medic is one of just a handful of options we have. I've had good results with Medic so far - but I also don't have anything to really compare it with, either (and I also run an oversized UV on my system).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My DT is just a couple months old. I plan to rent a QT for 90 days. So basically I'm taking a somewhat newly established biofilter and diluting it further with a new tank. My plan is to perform a 50% water change for DT and send that water over to the new QT. I have 2 sock filters. I plan on replacing 1 sock filter with a new, and hanging the dirty sock filter in the QT to help establish biofilter. I'll also add in 4 ozs of Turbostart 900. Does this sound like a good plan or make adjustments? I wanted to give the QT a few days to run as well before diving in, but it sounds like you're advising to not wait.

I'm incredibly nervous about putting all fish thru copper treatment knowing some like blue tangs dont do well with it, but I'm not skilled enough to perform a TTM. I have a great peaceful community I was able to collect and every fish seems special to me already. I just hope I save more lives than I hurt by making this move. But it appears its the only way to save the inflicted.

I'm a bit worried that the 50 gallon may not have a strong enough bio filter. You at least will need to measure the ammonia level to ensure it doesn't rise.

Another option might be to run a hyposalinity treatment. A specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 works in most cases. Trouble is, it is slower to begin to work than copper, so I hesitate to recommend it here.

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

I'm a bit worried that the 50 gallon may not have a strong enough bio filter. You at least will need to measure the ammonia level to ensure it doesn't rise.

Another option might be to run a hyposalinity treatment. A specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 works in most cases. Trouble is, it is slower to begin to work than copper, so I hesitate to recommend it here.

Jay

I can test twice a day for ammonia, nitrite, nitrates but if I encounter ammonia/nitrite spikes can I use Seachem Prime or Amguard when doing a copper treatment?

I have looked a bit into hyposalinity and from what I understand @Humblefish would choose TTM or Copper Power treatment first. That's an assumption based on what I've been reading though.

I don't have access to anything bigger than a 50 gallon QT so my choices appear to be either A) Just go for it and risk death or long term illness due to unestablished QT, or B) Allow Ich to kill my Blue tang (at this point that seems to be more likely. Yesterday I would have said 50/50, now I think she has maybe a 25/75 chance) and see if the other 3 fish with Ich fair any better. Option B seems to have a potential death count of 4. Option A is unknown, but potentially could be more... really the hardest decision ever.

P.S. Option C, wait another week to allow QT to establish something of a biofilter and then dive in. My guess is only the blue tang would pass by then.

 

[Elliott ll]

I'm a bit worried that the 50 gallon may not have a strong enough bio filter. You at least will need to measure the ammonia level to ensure it doesn't rise.

Another option might be to run a hyposalinity treatment. A specific gravity of 1.009 for 30 works in most cases. Trouble is, it is slower to begin to work than copper, so I hesitate to recommend it here.

Jay

@Jay Hemdal ...I've noticed something odd... The white spots covering my blue tang seem to be disappearing and turning into black spots... picture quality is low because I had to use flash, but take a look... what the heck? Is this simply the spots healing up a bit finally? Or was this actually black ich and the white spots were the reaction from blue tang?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal ...I've noticed something odd... The white spots covering my blue tang seem to be disappearing and turning into black spots... picture quality is low because I had to use flash, but take a look... what the heck? Is this simply the spots healing up a bit finally? Or was this actually black ich and the white spots were the reaction from blue tang?

Most likely these are melanin deposition - scarring from ich trophonts. Ich parasites start off in an infection being mostly in sync, and the spots may come and go at first until eventually they fall out of sync. Black spot disease starts off black due to the same melanin deposition.
Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

Most likely these are melanin deposition - scarring from ich trophonts. Ich parasites start off in an infection being mostly in sync, and the spots may come and go at first until eventually they fall out of sync. Black spot disease starts off black due to the same melanin deposition.
Jay

Okay that makes more sense. Thank you for clearing this up.

Does the fact that the ich parasites have begun falling off and are not currently in the "ich perfect storm" stage of being constantly on her / in sync, buy me a little time to build a biofilter with my fallow tank? Or would you still suggest I immediately put all fish into the 50gal and begin treatment?

Seriously, thank you again for your help with this and contributing to the community like you are.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Okay that makes more sense. Thank you for clearing this up.

Does the fact that the ich parasites have begun falling off and are not currently in the "ich perfect storm" stage of being constantly on her / in sync, buy me a little time to build a biofilter with my fallow tank? Or would you still suggest I immediately put all fish into the 50gal and begin treatment?

Seriously, thank you again for your help with this and contributing to the community like you are.

It is tough to say exactly how much time you have to work with here. Even if it was my own tank, I can’t always predict when the parasite will go into geometric progression and just hit the fish hard. I always tell folks since copper can take up to 3 days to really work, to get started ASAP….

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

It is tough to say exactly how much time you have to work with here. Even if it was my own tank, I can’t always predict when the parasite will go into geometric progression and just hit the fish hard. I always tell folks since copper can take up to 3 days to really work, to get started ASAP….

Jay

Okay thank you. The tank gets here tomorrow. I will begin right away and not worry about biofilter. Ill be spending a lot of money on water changes it seems.

@Jay Hemdal , would it be better to treat the 4 infected fish first in the 50 gallon and leave the others, then tackle the 76 day fallow period another time when things are so widespread and I have time to establish a 50 gallon tank or just pull every single fish and treat every fish? Or can ammonia poisonings be avoided with frequent water changes?

I have blue tang 4in , 2.5in purple tang, 4in foxface lo, 3.5in blue throat trigger pair, 2in clown pair, labout fairy wrasse 3in, melanurus wrasse 3in, golden rhombid wrasse 1in. Curious if any of these unsafe to use Copper Power on.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Okay thank you. The tank gets here tomorrow. I will begin right away and not worry about biofilter. Ill be spending a lot of money on water changes it seems.

@Jay Hemdal , would it be better to treat the 4 infected fish first in the 50 gallon and leave the others, then tackle the 76 day fallow period another time when things are so widespread and I have time to establish a 50 gallon tank or just pull every single fish and treat every fish? Or can ammonia poisonings be avoided with frequent water changes?

I have blue tang 4in , 2.5in purple tang, 4in foxface lo, 3.5in blue throat trigger pair, 2in clown pair, labout fairy wrasse 3in, melanurus wrasse 3in, golden rhombid wrasse 1in. Curious if any of these unsafe to use Copper Power on.

For ammonia control, water changes are going to be tough to do and keep up on it. I've seen crowded tanks that built up as much as 1 ppm ammonia daily....requiring 100% daily changes.

Two better options would be "bacteria in a bottle" like Dr. Tim's, or better yet, if you have any material from your DT that could act as a bio-filter, you could move it over - any material that isn't calcium based, but that could have bacteria on it.

Common wisdom is that wrasses don't like copper. However, Copper Power is fairly safe, even with wrasse. The little rhomboid would be at the most risk I think.

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

For ammonia control, water changes are going to be tough to do and keep up on it. I've seen crowded tanks that built up as much as 1 ppm ammonia daily....requiring 100% daily changes.

Two better options would be "bacteria in a bottle" like Dr. Tim's, or better yet, if you have any material from your DT that could act as a bio-filter, you could move it over - any material that isn't calcium based, but that could have bacteria on it.

Common wisdom is that wrasses don't like copper. However, Copper Power is fairly safe, even with wrasse. The little rhomboid would be at the most risk I think.

Jay

I honestly don't think I could manage to keep up with the ammonia in a 50 gal.. I had troubles with my 90 gal tank starting out with half the fish and (2) 4 ozs bottles of Fritz Turbostart 900. I could move over my 2 sock filters and a bag of matrix I've had in my DT? @Jay Hemdal If you think that's enough... I may give it a go with 30 days copper treatment and then add some sand and what not for final 46 days of fallow.

Another angle I am debating on taking is management (uv sterilizer), and leave my clowns, wrasses, foxface, and trigger pair in DT... While keeping the 50 gallon tank as a breeder/quarantine tank, so when/if ich overwhelms a fish, I can net the infected fish and treat them in QT, then put back in DT hoping they build up some sort of resistance over time. Is this feasible to do?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I honestly don't think I could manage to keep up with the ammonia in a 50 gal.. I had troubles with my 90 gal tank starting out with half the fish and (2) 4 ozs bottles of Fritz Turbostart 900. I could move over my 2 sock filters and a bag of matrix I've had in my DT? @Jay Hemdal If you think that's enough... I may give it a go with 30 days copper treatment and then add some sand and what not for final 46 days of fallow.

Another angle I am debating on taking is management (uv sterilizer), and leave my clowns, wrasses, foxface, and trigger pair in DT... While keeping the 50 gallon tank as a breeder/quarantine tank, so when/if ich overwhelms a fish, I can net the infected fish and treat them in QT, then put back in DT hoping they build up some sort of resistance over time. Is this feasible to do?

Ich management is a bit like balancing on a tightrope - it can drop you off really easily.

The filter bags may contain some bacteria, but not if you change them often. If the matrix has been in there for more than a few months, that might be enough to at least jumpstart the cycle.
Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

I'm on about day 8 of Copper Power between 2.25-2.45ppm. My Blue Tang is still pretty covered in Ich. Is this normal for Ich to still be present for so many days after therapeutic levels?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm on about day 8 of Copper Power between 2.25-2.45ppm. My Blue Tang is still pretty covered in Ich. Is this normal for Ich to still be present for so many days after therapeutic levels?

No - typically ich trophonts drop off and are not replaced by about day three of a copper treatment. Copper Power is at a full dose at around 2.1 ppm, so you are above that.

Is it a hepatus blue tang? That species often develops "mucus plugs" during copper treatments. They resemble ich trophonts, but they are larger and do not "come and go" like ich does.

Can you post a picture?

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

No - typically ich trophonts drop off and are not replaced by about day three of a copper treatment. Copper Power is at a full dose at around 2.1 ppm, so you are above that.

Is it a hepatus blue tang? That species often develops "mucus plugs" during copper treatments. They resemble ich trophonts, but they are larger and do not "come and go" like ich does.

Can you post a picture?

Jay

Yes it is a hepatus blue tang. Hanna checker testing at 2.30ppm on the dot at the moment so I will attempt to slightly lower. She's currently asleep and poor lighting so let me post a clear picture in the morning during feeding. The ones I captured sucked. I would say that they are more pimple like texture than what I was seeing before with the Ich.. During the daytime she is relentlessly scratching, which led me to believe she still has Ich. Could mucus plugs also cause scratching?

I am not seeing these symptoms in any other fish within QT however... purple tang included.