Blue Tang with Marine Ich... I think?

[Elliott ll]

No - typically ich trophonts drop off and are not replaced by about day three of a copper treatment. Copper Power is at a full dose at around 2.1 ppm, so you are above that.

Is it a hepatus blue tang? That species often develops "mucus plugs" during copper treatments. They resemble ich trophonts, but they are larger and do not "come and go" like ich does.

Can you post a picture?

Jay

I'm having a really hard time capturing a picture. Will keep trying and update. She's hiding like crazy now which is odd for her. She seems far more pale than normal. Still relentlessly scratching. That's why taking a picture has been so hard because anytime she comes out it is to feed quickly or scratch like crazy. Light sensitivity seems increased.

Few things I notice is that there are a lot of black spots, melanin depositions I think you stated. I do in fact see idiopathic mucus plugs/cones. I can see the white raised cone shapes around her dorsal fin. I do think that she is facing issues with mucus plugs, but I am wondering if it is in combo with something else due to the black spots I am seeing and the insane amount of scratching she is doing... Would dosing with Prazipro at this time be unwise still?

What would be my course of action if this an issue with mucus plugs and her treatment in copper? Beyond reducing the current QT to 2.1ppm, would you suggest I deploy another small QT for her to have a separate QT after 7 more days (14 days total of copper power above 2.1ppm and then into new sterile tank). Or is there anyway to avoid having to setup an additional QT to save her?

 

[Elliott ll]

Also for Copper Power, isn't the therapeutic levels 2.5ppm? I know Copper Safe is 2.0ppm but Humblefish article is stating Copper Power is 2.5ppm.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Also for Copper Power, isn't the therapeutic levels 2.5ppm? I know Copper Safe is 2.0ppm but Humblefish article is stating Copper Power is 2.5ppm.

When dosed according to label directions, Coppersafe tests out at 2.5 ppm and Copper Power tests at 2.1ppm. What people have found is that Copper Power may not stop active infections at the lower dose, so people have been going "off label" and dosing it at 2.5 ppm.

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

When dosed according to label directions, Coppersafe tests out at 2.5 ppm and Copper Power tests at 2.1ppm. What people have found is that Copper Power may not stop active infections at the lower dose, so people have been going "off label" and dosing it at 2.5 ppm.

Jay

Got it! Thank you for clarifying this.

If I am indeed dealing with a case of idiopathic mucus plugs and I feel like my Blue tang is heading in the wrong direction would you suggest 1) employing TTM on the Blue Tang and abandoning copper treatment for her alone, or 2) continue with copper treatment as scheduled and then remove copper from QT?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm having a really hard time capturing a picture. Will keep trying and update. She's hiding like crazy now which is odd for her. She seems far more pale than normal. Still relentlessly scratching. That's why taking a picture has been so hard because anytime she comes out it is to feed quickly or scratch like crazy. Light sensitivity seems increased.

Few things I notice is that there are a lot of black spots, melanin depositions I think you stated. I do in fact see idiopathic mucus plugs/cones. I can see the white raised cone shapes around her dorsal fin. I do think that she is facing issues with mucus plugs, but I am wondering if it is in combo with something else due to the black spots I am seeing and the insane amount of scratching she is doing... Would dosing with Prazipro at this time be unwise still?

What would be my course of action if this an issue with mucus plugs and her treatment in copper? Beyond reducing the current QT to 2.1ppm, would you suggest I deploy another small QT for her to have a separate QT after 7 more days (14 days total of copper power above 2.1ppm and then into new sterile tank). Or is there anyway to avoid having to setup an additional QT to save her?

Given the timeline that is playing out here, I'm less convinced that this is marine ich, especially in light of the copper not working. Since ich kills fairly quickly, it is best to go with copper first. The trouble is that remote diagnosis is tricky, especially without really clear photos. Combine that with fish that can have multiple issues at one time and it becomes a real mess. In addition to the mucus plugs, the fish could well have flukes - that would account for the scratching.

I'm hesitant to suggest that you dose prazipro along with copper, but it can be done. The two options would be: dose prazipro on top of the copper. Pull 1/2 of the copper and dose with prazipro. The former is more stressful, but the latter option leaves the fish more open to on-going protozoan issues. I think it ends up being a judgement call on your part. A third option would be to give the tang a 5 minute FW dip and then see if the symptoms abate over 48 hours. If they do, then it is more probably flukes and then you would pull the copper and dose with prazipro. When dosing with prazi, ensure the tank has good aeration and that you dose accurately for the tank's actual water volume (not its rated capacity).

Jay

 

[Elliott ll]

Given the timeline that is playing out here, I'm less convinced that this is marine ich, especially in light of the copper not working. Since ich kills fairly quickly, it is best to go with copper first. The trouble is that remote diagnosis is tricky, especially without really clear photos. Combine that with fish that can have multiple issues at one time and it becomes a real mess. In addition to the mucus plugs, the fish could well have flukes - that would account for the scratching.

I'm hesitant to suggest that you dose prazipro along with copper, but it can be done. The two options would be: dose prazipro on top of the copper. Pull 1/2 of the copper and dose with prazipro. The former is more stressful, but the latter option leaves the fish more open to on-going protozoan issues. I think it ends up being a judgement call on your part. A third option would be to give the tang a 5 minute FW dip and then see if the symptoms abate over 48 hours. If they do, then it is more probably flukes and then you would pull the copper and dose with prazipro. When dosing with prazi, ensure the tank has good aeration and that you dose accurately for the tank's actual water volume (not its rated capacity).

Jay

I did a 5 minute freshwater dip when transferring from DT into QT and wasn't about to produce floating flukes on any of my fish, but I'm wondering if its possible to not show during a dip?

I know that several of my fish certainly had marine ich at a point. Everyone but the Blue Tang seems 100% free of Ich now. I had about a total of 6 fish with Ich by the time I began treatment. That is my only concern with removing 1/2 copper or lowering below therapeutic levels. She is not the only fish in the QT and I would have to restart copper treatment on everything if lowering to 1/2. In light of that, would you suggest I get a 10 gallon bucket with heavy aeration and treat her with prazipro separately, then return her to copper tank after prazipro?

Here are a few images that show the black spotting. What I couldn't get on photo was the clear cone shaped white spots she has on her dorsal fin.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I did a 5 minute freshwater dip when transferring from DT into QT and wasn't about to produce floating flukes on any of my fish, but I'm wondering if its possible to not show during a dip?

I know that several of my fish certainly had marine ich at a point. Everyone but the Blue Tang seems 100% free of Ich now. I had about a total of 6 fish with Ich by the time I began treatment. That is my only concern with removing 1/2 copper or lowering below therapeutic levels. She is not the only fish in the QT and I would have to restart copper treatment on everything if lowering to 1/2. In light of that, would you suggest I get a 10 gallon bucket with heavy aeration and treat her with prazipro separately, then return her to copper tank after prazipro?

Flukes don't float after a FW dip, they sink to the bottom of the container. Only one species, Neobenedenia, can be seen without a microscope though. What I suggest is to watch the fish 48 hours after the dip - if the condition improves, that is a secondary sign that there were flukes, and that the FW dip knocked them back a bit.

Doing a prazipro dip is like doing a FW dip, it won't cure the fish, as there are still fluke larva/eggs in your tank, and the fish can get reinfected when it goes back in the tank.

Jay
.

 

[Elliott ll]

Flukes don't float after a FW dip, they sink to the bottom of the container. Only one species, Neobenedenia, can be seen without a microscope though. What I suggest is to watch the fish 48 hours after the dip - if the condition improves, that is a secondary sign that there were flukes, and that the FW dip knocked them back a bit.

Doing a prazipro dip is like doing a FW dip, it won't cure the fish, as there are still fluke larva/eggs in your tank, and the fish can get reinfected when it goes back in the tank.

Jay
.

Not as a prazipro dip. I would treat prazipro for 14 days separately (7 days each dose) and then redo 14 days of copper treatment separately as well. I don't want to mix prazipro with copper after reading the forum nightmares.

 

[Elliott ll]

Flukes don't float after a FW dip, they sink to the bottom of the container. Only one species, Neobenedenia, can be seen without a microscope though. What I suggest is to watch the fish 48 hours after the dip - if the condition improves, that is a secondary sign that there were flukes, and that the FW dip knocked them back a bit.

Doing a prazipro dip is like doing a FW dip, it won't cure the fish, as there are still fluke larva/eggs in your tank, and the fish can get reinfected when it goes back in the tank.

Jay
.

As you suggested I am going to do the 5min FW dip again and let you know my results after watching closely for 48 hours. If no improvement, then I am thinking copper sensitivity. I'm not a big fan of TTM, but thinking it may be the only option for this situation, if not flukes.

@Jay Hemdal just wanted to take a minute and say thank you for responding to so many of my posts/questions. Really awesome thing you're doing for the community and for someone like myself who is new to the hobby but a certain life time enthusiast, your help with this stuff is incredibly appreciated.

 

[Elliott ll]

Flukes don't float after a FW dip, they sink to the bottom of the container. Only one species, Neobenedenia, can be seen without a microscope though. What I suggest is to watch the fish 48 hours after the dip - if the condition improves, that is a secondary sign that there were flukes, and that the FW dip knocked them back a bit.

Doing a prazipro dip is like doing a FW dip, it won't cure the fish, as there are still fluke larva/eggs in your tank, and the fish can get reinfected when it goes back in the tank.

Jay
.

WOW @Jay Hemdal checkout these photos during and after FW dip with RO water... I matched temp, ph, and aerated for 30 min before doing it and then also during fw dip. Did the dip for 5 min. I dont think she will make it. What happened?! Is this a crazy case of flukes? I see hundreds of roundish white bubble looking things under her skin. Should I FW for longer?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Replying on the other thread as asked.
Jay