Blue throat trigger

Flame2hawk

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4 inch Blue throat trigger has been in my 625g FOWLR tank for about 10 months now. I added a 8 inch male cross hatch trigger after QT. Went away for 4 days and came back and saw blue throat with the marks seen in the photos. No other fish has it. My guess is that its either Lymph or actual bites from the larger x hatch trigger. What do you think and what can I do to help blue throat heal? Thx
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TriggerFinger

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Kinda looks like wounds to me, maybe some chasing is happening and it’s bumped into the rocks?
If that’s the case, I personally wouldn’t pull and treat with anything unless an infection started. Just keep an eye on it and make sure he/she gets plenty of good food.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Yes - that looks like wounds to me also. Lymphocystis would be more on the fins, and would be raised nodules. I suspect the other trigger, either directly biting it, or driving it into the rocks, where it gets scraped up. Fish aggression can be tricky to see - while you are watching the fish, they are busy watching you instead of fighting. Watching from a darkened room helps, but also, it only takes a few seconds of "tagging" during a day to develop marks like these, and you will often not be there at all when it happens.

As @TriggerFinger said, I wouldn't pull it for treatment yet, the bites don't look infected, just keep a close eye on it, fish aggression often gets worse instead of getting better.

Jay
 

vetteguy53081

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Bite marks.
Set up your cell phone at the tank and run it on video for about 1/2 hour but avoid being at tank.
Check back on the video and see if you can actually view the aggression in progress.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Bite marks.
Set up your cell phone at the tank and run it on video for about 1/2 hour but avoid being at tank.
Check back on the video and see if you can actually view the aggression in progress.

Cool idea - I never thought of that! I always sit in a dark room, really bored, watching for fighting.

Jay
 
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Flame2hawk

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He’s not doing any better and has stopped eating completely. Its time to try to get him out and treat the wounds. If successful in getting him out, what suggestions on how to treat and with what? What should I dip him in before putting in tank? Thx
 

Jay Hemdal

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Are the skin lesions worse? Has the fish’s respiration rate sped up? It should be breathing below about 80 Gill beats per minute - you can video it and count the Gill beats in 15 seconds and multiply by 4. That number will tell us a lot, or it will rule other problems out!
Standard practice would be to move the fish, and in doing so, give it a 5 minute FW dip to look for flukes. Once n a treatment tank, then the decision will be what to treat it for...
Jay
 
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Well it hasn’t gotten better and I’ve had no luck getting him out of the tank (625g). The FOWLR tank has been under copper power at 2.00ppm for 3 weeks and wondering if its time to cut it back even if 1 week short as it may be related? Thoughts please? Thx.
 

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Without being able to catch it for a dip, your options are pretty limited. How is its respiration rate? It looks like the cleaner wrasse is going over it, does the trigger pose for it a lot?

I really don’t think the copper is related to this at all, except that it isn’t helping.

If youve watched closely for aggression, and haven’t seen any, and the lesions are spreading, then the next differential diagnosis would be flukes. You could just dose with prazi without a confirming FW dip, but I think that will be pretty costly unless you have access to bulk prazi.
Jay
 
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Without being able to catch it for a dip, your options are pretty limited. How is its respiration rate? It looks like the cleaner wrasse is going over it, does the trigger pose for it a lot?

I really don’t think the copper is related to this at all, except that it isn’t helping.

If youve watched closely for aggression, and haven’t seen any, and the lesions are spreading, then the next differential diagnosis would be flukes. You could just dose with prazi without a confirming FW dip, but I think that will be pretty costly unless you have access to bulk prazi.
Jay
Thx. It could be flukes but I thought they were pretty translucent and these are very visible? Also no one else seems to show any signs of flukes and certainly nothing that looks like what’s on triggers skin. A bit of a mystery although yes the cleaner was cleaning something. Might try hypo (1.008/9)as I remove the copper with water changes. I understand hypo for 10 days will kill live flukes and egg hatchlings.WOuldn’t be too costly to dose prazi as it is 1 oz per 125 gallons so only 5 oz to treat 625g’s.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thx. It could be flukes but I thought they were pretty translucent and these are very visible? Also no one else seems to show any signs of flukes and certainly nothing that looks like what’s on triggers skin. A bit of a mystery although yes the cleaner was cleaning something. Might try hypo (1.008/9)as I remove the copper with water changes. I understand hypo for 10 days will kill live flukes and egg hatchlings.WOuldn’t be too costly to dose prazi as it is 1 oz per 125 gallons so only 5 oz to treat 625g’s.
Correct - you typically cannot see flukes, but you can sometimes see the damage that they cause. Hyposalinity works for Neobenedenia (the toughest fluke to deal with) but the time frame needs to be 35 days, at half salinity (so a specific gravity of around 1.012). I can't tell you if 1.009 will work faster or not, the issue is that you need to keep the eggs from hatching until they die. I would advise against going down to 1.008 SG, you will start to see more edema in sensitive fish. Also, be extremely careful what salinity measuring device you use, and confirm its calibration with a known standard. I use a German glass laboratory hydrometer. Remember that Uronema sometimes crops up during Hypo, so keep things clean - siphon detritus, no uneaten food, etc.

Jay
 

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Just curious: Since it’s a FOWLR, isn’t there room between rock structures to use two egg crate tank dividers— say one near the middle at first— and then alternating the dividers to make the swim-space smaller and smaller until you essentially have the Blue Throat all by himself up against one end of the tank, to capture and remove him?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Just curious: Since it’s a FOWLR, isn’t there room between rock structures to use two egg crate tank dividers— say one near the middle at first— and then alternating the dividers to make the swim-space smaller and smaller until you essentially have the Blue Throat all by himself up against one end of the tank, to capture and remove him?
Or: to isolate him to definitely rule out aggression (I'm only going down the road for flukes IF aggression can be 100% ruled out).

jay
 
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Just curious: Since it’s a FOWLR, isn’t there room between rock structures to use two egg crate tank dividers— say one near the middle at first— and then alternating the dividers to make the swim-space smaller and smaller until you essentially have the Blue Throat all by himself up against one end of the tank, to capture and remove him?
I’d have to remove most of the rock to do that. When u have a 625g with 400 lbs of rock, its almost impossible to catch a trigger who wedges himself in the rocks as soon as you put your hand in the tank because he is sick. Prior he used to eat out of my hand as the crosshatch still does. Again no other fish are showing any signs of flukes or discomfort...eating and thriving...
 
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Flame2hawk

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Correct - you typically cannot see flukes, but you can sometimes see the damage that they cause. Hyposalinity works for Neobenedenia (the toughest fluke to deal with) but the time frame needs to be 35 days, at half salinity (so a specific gravity of around 1.012). I can't tell you if 1.009 will work faster or not, the issue is that you need to keep the eggs from hatching until they die. I would advise against going down to 1.008 SG, you will start to see more edema in sensitive fish. Also, be extremely careful what salinity measuring device you use, and confirm its calibration with a known standard. I use a German glass laboratory hydrometer. Remember that Uronema sometimes crops up during Hypo, so keep things clean - siphon detritus, no uneaten food, etc.

Jay
I’ll do a water change and go with prazi. Fingers crossed as I have had very mixed results with prazi in the past. Thx.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I’ll do a water change and go with prazi. Fingers crossed as I have had very mixed results with prazi in the past. Thx.

You should increase aeration with prazi, and if you are using bulk powder, do not use alcohol as a solvent. Please don't misconstrue, I'm also thinking that hypo could be a viable treatment, I was just trying to sort out some of the pitfalls for you....

Jay
 
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You should increase aeration with prazi, and if you are using bulk powder, do not use alcohol as a solvent. Please don't misconstrue, I'm also thinking that hypo could be a viable treatment, I was just trying to sort out some of the pitfalls for you....

Jay
I totally understand and appreciate your help and thoughts. This hobby is certainly not an exact science especially when it comes to treatment.
 
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Flame2hawk

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Before prazi (liquid from bottle) Or hypo want to just be clear that NO OTHER FISH SEEM IMPACTED. This seems strange to me as anytime I’ve had flukes in tank more than 1 fish shows symptoms., I am really of 2 minds here as dosing the whole tank only to find out that it didn’t cure the trigger and exposed others to over medication is hardly the optimal outcome. I do however realize treat options are limited. SO the question is ...is it possible for a trigger to show such bad skin lesions and no one else have any symptoms from flukes? Thx
 

Jay Hemdal

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Before prazi (liquid from bottle) Or hypo want to just be clear that NO OTHER FISH SEEM IMPACTED. This seems strange to me as anytime I’ve had flukes in tank more than 1 fish shows symptoms., I am really of 2 minds here as dosing the whole tank only to find out that it didn’t cure the trigger and exposed others to over medication is hardly the optimal outcome. I do however realize treat options are limited. SO the question is ...is it possible for a trigger to show such bad skin lesions and no one else have any symptoms from flukes? Thx
So - some species of flukes are pretty specific to the type of fish they infect. Triggers are quite a bit different in their scale/skin structure than most other aquarium fish. I would not be at all surprised to have a trigger develop a disease that other fish won't catch. My concern here is the worsening of the symptoms. Without an "end game" I'm just worried that things will progress further, to the detriment of the trigger. I do not see any reason that if possible, you couldn't isolate the trigger for treatment alone. I wish I could give the fish a skin scrape and look at it under a scope that would probably tell us pretty quickly what is going on here!

Jay
 

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