Bottle stuff why? Vibrant...cycle bottle stuff

Kenneth Wingerter

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At least when I add the table shrimp I know what I'm putting I'm my fish tank. Lol.
D
The only thing you know you're putting in your tank is the pollution from a decomposing shrimp. You're not adding any bacteria (aside, maybe, from god-knows-what is living on the shrimp). The decomposing organic matter is not promoting the growth of nitrifing bacteria, as a few people such as yourself might believe, because nitrifying bacteria cannot utilize organic matter as a carbon source (they are largely autotrophic). Polluting your tank for the purpose of adding that little bit of organic nitrogen is not so effective, because you'll have to wait for ammonifying bacteria to rot the material and thereby convert it to inorganic forms of nitrogen that nitrifying bacteria can actually use. Makes more sense to just add some ammonium chloride along with the actual bacteria you're trying to culture. Faster and doesn't degrade your water quality. Makes sense to me, and to the vast majority of modern aquarists.

If polluting your tank with dead shrimp "works" for you, fantastic. You do you. But to suggest that the posters above are dumb or are somehow getting duped for using proven products such as Dr. Tim's, TurboStart, etc. makes no sense. The mail delivery by horseback analogy provided above provides a sufficiently apt argument, so I could leave it at that. But I must point out that to state that you know what you're putting in your tank with a dead shrimp is not only untrue, it doesn't even sensibly further your argument. Especially when many of the microbial products out there ACTUALLY DO tell you what your adding, down to the list of species. Finally, comparing proven microbial products made by honest and competent companies with Vibrant (a product which appears to contain no bacteria) neither serves to bolster your argument nor does it even make sense.

Not trying to be a jerk here, or sound like one... It's just that you answered your own question in the OP. Yes, to "cycle faster," and yes, to "have a more diverse beneficial bacteria population." Though your "lol" at the end of that suggests you have some evidence to refute those ideas? Have you had some experiences with a specific cycling product to suggest it doesn't work? Is there some specific microbial species, or biological process, or aquarium husbandry technique associated with the use of these products that you've found to be ineffective? Just trying to understand where people with these sorts of arguments are coming from. The "I come from a time" line is less than convincing. Experience is gauged by breadth, not by duration. I mean, I too come from that time, a time when the only corals anyone kept were dead and bleached decor. And it sucked. My suggestion is to consider objectively and rationally some of the advancements available to you, and to not disregard them without all due research. At the very least, if you actually have any evidence of "hype and lies," please stop teasing us here. Bring it.
 

Saltyanimals

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If vibrant is bacteria, and bottle bact as a recent trend does anyone dose it in small quantities as a proactive introduction of the strains it contains? Same applies to chemclean. Again in efforts to diversify the bact population. Anyone dose small doses?
 

Lasse

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If vibrant is bacteria, and bottle bact as a recent trend does anyone dose it in small quantities as a proactive introduction of the strains it contains? Same applies to chemclean. Again in efforts to diversify the bact population. Anyone dose small doses?
It is not

Sincerely Lasse
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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If vibrant is bacteria, and bottle bact as a recent trend does anyone dose it in small quantities as a proactive introduction of the strains it contains? Same applies to chemclean. Again in efforts to diversify the bact population. Anyone dose small doses?
Chemiclean is an antibiotic, so adding it would be counterproductive to your reasoning.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Kenneth

the naturally-selected bacteria that are prepared across substrate in 30 days by adding only a table shrimp and allowing decomposition, or three ground up pinches of fish feed, still perform basic filtration duties- ammonia processing. agreed they switch to different clades of filtration bacteria over time...aquabiomics posts show some patterned species expected across tanks

In Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread (100 pages) Dr. Tim was discussing origination sources for natural strains...the incoming water was #1 suspect. bacteria able to handle waste loading given enough ramp-up time come primarily from nonboiled water we use in the delivery chain to our tank, and septic handling procedures that place bacteria in addition to those in our final tank assemblies. various pipe scums and sloughs...


people want to know a given date they can carry bioload without harm from inability to process ammonia... we can create repeating large work threads where only those sources are used for initial fuel and the beginning group of bacteria come from contaminated prep water etc, but are still boosted in large numbers. In place of for-cost bottled bacteria..ie all cycling charts already know the basic completion timeframes for a boosted cycle.


the initial group is an ammonia workhorse and then different clades take over as marine-sourced materials are imported, and the whole time: ammonia is controlled. here is one such thread, very well controlled against for-sale bottle bac and feed/timing driven then turned into a full reef.


In my opinion a perfect mix of dilution, low bioload, charted ramp-up time all combine to effect a legit ethical fish carry there. The fish themselves appear to be the very first vectors for actual marine cycling bacteria, but the tank was able to handle bioload anyway even before that arrival. testing did not govern that start date; a cycling chart did.


MonkeyC:
Regarding bottle bacteria, I would use any of the common cycling brands. who wants to wait 30 days nowadays

99.9% of any bottle bac cycle can carry bioload right off the bat with no wait time, ethically. Studies on seneye show this many times in threads. we collect many day 1 startups using fish, corals and bottle bac. It's ok to shortcut wait time if the same degree of ammonia control can be expected

I never thought selling folks water bacteria in water was shocking, the stuff has been tested up down and sideways as able to control ammonia without the common ramp up. Exhaustively tested, and found highly predictable in huge work threads that assign exact start dates vs open-ended waits. thanks to Dr Reef we even know the implantation rates from the common sources onto surfaces such that a 100% water change doesn't 'unstick' the bacteria. Bottle bacteria are tracked on seneye cycles routinely now...


the word 'bacteria' has become a marked sales trigger in the hobby driven by all kinds of fear in the matter as a reaction to low level nh4 readings from API kits and old cycling science rules running everything into a fear-based mode. Old cycling science says only zero ammonia on api, hard yellow, is safe. So when 100,000+ reefs run api and get .25, that means bacteria are dead/ sales trigger of the millennia is still in effect. old cycling science sells thousands of bottles of bacteria in reaction to perceived 'nitrite' stalls thousands of times a year, we show in threads.


I track fear-based bottle bac sales in many many pattern work threads...bottle bac is interesting in that it has been positioned to both soothe the mind and the ammonia for the tank, marketing perfection. Forum peers drive it by repeating science tenets that do not come from massive patterned work threads. some formula makers might even grab onto that buzzword and put it on algae cure offers...

anything with the word bacteria in it is going to sell to this huge group we're in, but that doesn't mean the mixes are nonfunctional. I think the best science lies in filter completion dates/ exact bioload carry dates prepared vs open-ended wait cycles, and then a huge focus on fish disease preps thereafter. the ammonia control is the easy part.

our hobby needs less focus on ammonia handling, as a free option exists for anyone with 30 day's time shown above. we could benefit with better bacterial science regarding disease control if possible, and tank cleaning assistance though.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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this is a prime, standout example of false bottle bac sales. Completely unneeded, he was cycled the first round.

Fear that water bacteria in water didn’t work or that the bottle must be dead because someone reports .25 api is the daily mantra of old cycling science.






there’s a false stall from nano-reef.com

the Op has a cleaner shrimp, clownfish, clean water lots of rocks and Dr Tims added two weeks ago (which is what is keeping it all alive) and they’ve trained the cycler to buy a new round of bacteria today. The tank has new diatom growth (visual clue rules of completion) and even an alert badge showing safe the entire time…but a light nh4 reading off api will trigger all cycle umpires to throttle right into fear mode. Fear based bottle bac sale, unneeded, is happening there live time.

old cycling science absolutely loves symptomless ammonia control issues. One of the most damaging compounds marine life will ever encounter all of a sudden doesn’t cause any actual distress, when it comes to cycle stalling.

have we noticed that when it comes to any other branch of veterinary science, failure to control ammonia in its forms comes with drastic lethargy, writhing, not feeding or walking, death soon after? so how are ‘harmed’ delicate marine animals acting completely normal for weeks acceptable as proof of ammonia noncontrol? Symptomless ammonia non control is the harbinger of old cycling science in any thread review.
 
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