Brew's 187g slice of the ocean

[User]

It wasn't an easy decision. I had to read quite a few modern aquaculture studies on pathogen control before I convinced myself that I was unlikely to wipe out my tank by not doing prophylactic treatment. Had I seen anything noticeable in the short period I did have them in QT I would have treated for it.

Of course, it is still possible that I'll have my tank wiped out by something, but that was possible before I added these fish.

How long since your last QT and how many fish since? Abs are you planning/ have you gone full “immune reef” strategy?

Sorry for the Q’s- Id love to reread the thread to find out but I’m just back from my vacation and I need to unpack, pick up the dog, and give my tanks some attention.

Thanks!

 

[Brew12]

How long since your last QT and how many fish since? Abs are you planning/ have you gone full “immune reef” strategy?

My last prophylactic QT was the Bimac Anthias and a Mandarin this past spring. The Mandy didn't make it more than a week in the tank and the last of the Bimac's died a month or 2 ago.

These are the first fish I have gotten since then. 6 Dispar Anthias, the Court Jester Goby, and the Coral Beauty. All 8 fish are doing well. This is day 9 since I added them to the DT.

I stopped QT'ing inverts and corals over a year ago and have received quite a few batches of each. I've added snails, conchs, lots of peppermint shrimp and some hermits.

I think an immune reef strategy means different things to different people. I prefer to think of it as a holistic approach. I already have a controller and quite a bit of redundancy in equipment to maintain good tank conditions. I run GAC quite often and also use the Sochting Oxydator to help maintain water quality. I feed LRS, PE Mysis and Reef Nutrition Chroma pellets to provide a high quality food source. I'm careful not to overstock my tank and I avoid any fish that I know will cause a conflict in my tank.

Sorry for the Q’s- Id love to reread the thread to find out but I’m just back from my vacation and I need to unpack, pick up the dog, and give my tanks some attention.

I almost never get the chance to catch up on threads after a vacation, it would take way too much time! And I appreciate the questions since anyone new to my thread isn't likely to read all 150 pages so answering questions is a good way to keep bringing up potentially useful or interesting info for them.

 

[JMM744]

So you didn’t treat with anything? Just kept in a qt tank briefly?

 

[Brew12]

So you didn’t treat with anything? Just kept in a qt tank briefly?

Nope, didn't do any treating. The main reason I used the QT was to be able to more slowly raise salinity from the shipping water (1.016) to my DT water (1.026). They spent about 30 hours in the QT system if I recall correctly.

 

[najer]

Nope, didn't do any treating. The main reason I used the QT was to be able to more slowly raise salinity from the shipping water (1.016) to my DT water (1.026). They spent about 30 hours in the QT system if I recall correctly.

Opposite side of the pond and we have talked disease loads, I know you are getting fish shipped, I pick them up, short observation and in would be my choice over there, hopefully no wholesaler would ship diseased fish, keep the stress levels low!

 

[JMM744]

Nope, didn't do any treating. The main reason I used the QT was to be able to more slowly raise salinity from the shipping water (1.016) to my DT water (1.026). They spent about 30 hours in the QT system if I recall correctly.

So when I received my second trio they came in with euranoma. Showed symptoms within 24 hrs. What’s your thought on this situation? Reading between the lines it appears to me that one would just use the right foods etc.. to get them healthy and in the display?

 

[Brew12]

So when I received my second trio they came in with euranoma. Showed symptoms within 24 hrs. What’s your thought on this situation? Reading between the lines it appears to me that one would just use the right foods etc.. to get them healthy and in the display?

A fish with obvious signs of a disease such as urinoma should be treated imo. Unfortunately, I am not aware of anyone who has treated any anthias other than Lyretails that has had them survive over 6 months. It's a no win situation.
This is where there is a real advantage to seeing fish in a LFS prior to purchase. You can see if they are healthy instead of receiving them blind.

 

[JMM744]

I have to travel 90 min. to the nearest ones. I actually approached two in Ft. Wayne and asked them to acquire me certain fish and both said sure. That was months ago, actually early spring. Neither has ever done a thing. My only choice is internet. Most have been through Humblefish Aquatics of late. Even then we lost some fish. I am just trying to figure this qt thing out as it’s just so very taxing and expensive monetarily and time wise, not to mention the emotion of it all.
I don’t think I will do copper anymore unless it’s an absolute requirement. More like watch in separate system and once they look good into a reef tank that is offline of my big system. I finally have all my butterflies save two still in treatment and I can not risk them.
I will say, the fish I got from Divers Den seemed healthier then LA. At least the anthias.
I am done, long winded, sorry.
Jim

 

[Brew12]

I have to travel 90 min. to the nearest ones. I actually approached two in Ft. Wayne and asked them to acquire me certain fish and both said sure. That was months ago, actually early spring. Neither has ever done a thing. My only choice is internet. Most have been through Humblefish Aquatics of late. Even then we lost some fish. I am just trying to figure this qt thing out as it’s just so very taxing and expensive monetarily and time wise, not to mention the emotion of it all.
I don’t think I will do copper anymore unless it’s an absolute requirement. More like watch in separate system and once they look good into a reef tank that is offline of my big system. I finally have all my butterflies save two still in treatment and I can not risk them.
I will say, the fish I got from Divers Den seemed healthier then LA. At least the anthias.
I am done, long winded, sorry.
Jim

Nothing to apologize for. This is a topic that needs as much civil discussion as it can get.

The problem with chemically treating fish is that it weakens them. You may eliminate the target parasite but you make them vulnerable to other pathogens that they are exposed to. Bacterial infections are very uncommon in the hobby, except in fish that have been treated in a QT system. There, they are surprisingly common.
If someone is telling you they are selling you pathogen free fish, they are lying. Can't be done unless they are selling you fish that have been through an incinerator and the ashes packed in bleach. Anyone who sells a fish without symptoms is selling fish that are free of disease even though they may be carrying ich parasites.

 

[User]

For clarity- Humblefish Aquatics is putting their fish through strict prophylactic treatment QT designed to eradicate ich and velvet parasites and also clear intestinal parasites. At this point- I think they are the only people doing it. That’s my understanding, anyway

I would have zero qualms putting a Humblefish Aquatics bought fish straight into my DT. That’s because my in-home QT follows their protocol as close as I can manage, and it’s done by people I can trust. Their QT is about as guaranteed as my in-home efforts would be. So if I trust me, I trust them.

Saying that- I wouldn’t want to put the pressure of asking HA to QT 9 dispar anthias and a bunch of ruby red mandarins etc, or other difficult fish. It’s unfair to them, especially at the prices they sell the QTd fish for. That’s why I’m looking at strategies for doing this myself. I’m still very unsure if putting non-QT fish in my DT however.

 

[Brew12]

For clarity- Humblefish Aquatics is putting their fish through strict prophylactic treatment QT designed to eradicate ich and velvet parasites and also clear intestinal parasites. At this point- I think they are the only people doing it. That’s my understanding, anyway

I would have zero qualms putting a Humblefish Aquatics bought fish straight into my DT. That’s because my in-home QT follows their protocol as close as I can manage, and it’s done by people I can trust. Their QT is about as guaranteed as my in-home efforts would be. So if I trust me, I trust them.

Saying that- I wouldn’t want to put the pressure of asking HA to QT 9 dispar anthias and a bunch of ruby red mandarins etc, or other difficult fish. It’s unfair to them, especially at the prices they sell the QTd fish for. That’s why I’m looking at strategies for doing this myself. I’m still very unsure if putting non-QT fish in my DT however.

There is no doubt in my mind that fish from HA will not have Ich, Velvet, Urinoma, or Brook. They also are very unlikely to have any harmful internal parasites. He isn't the only one. Another vendor is offering options on how much treatment you would like your fish to have. The one that did it previously went out of business.

The problem is that there isn't enough money to be made on the fish that are easy to QT. Most people won't pay the premium. The loses even experts have on harder fish, like Mandy's and many Anthias, make it unprofitable. Trust me when I tell you that even experts like Bobby (Humblefish) have experienced major loses both during and after quarantining.

There are also issues with accountability. Unless someone has QT'd everything wet in their tank, including coral and inverts, it doesn't matter if the fish come in without those pathogens. Odds are they will make it into the tank. And, if they do, the fish will have been weakened by the treatments and less likely to survive the exposure.

 

[JMM744]

For clarity- Humblefish Aquatics is putting their fish through strict prophylactic treatment QT designed to eradicate ich and velvet parasites and also clear intestinal parasites. At this point- I think they are the only people doing it. That’s my understanding, anyway

I would have zero qualms putting a Humblefish Aquatics bought fish straight into my DT. That’s because my in-home QT follows their protocol as close as I can manage, and it’s done by people I can trust. Their QT is about as guaranteed as my in-home efforts would be. So if I trust me, I trust them.

Saying that- I wouldn’t want to put the pressure of asking HA to QT 9 dispar anthias and a bunch of ruby red mandarins etc, or other difficult fish. It’s unfair to them, especially at the prices they sell the QTd fish for. That’s why I’m looking at strategies for doing this myself. I’m still very unsure if putting non-QT fish in my DT however.

I just asked for 6 dispar. Have two now that are doing well in my 70 reef that’s off line of my big system. They just today ate mysis. They have come a long way once I got them out of the qt tank and into something a bit more comfortable to them. I am giving them a month and if nothing shows I guess they go in the display.
I have added 12 fish from HA so far with no problem. There is another person offering qt services right now. Also one of the vendors here is starting to offer conditioned fish.
If it wasn’t for this issue and cyno, GHA this hobby would be great fun!!

 

[JMM744]

Posted on top of yours. I currently feed a homemade door of raw shrimp, scallops, white fish fillets, mysis, spirolina brine, bloodworms, calanus, vitamins and other additives. I feed black worms occasionally and slice up some clams or oysters every couple days as well. It’s just hard to get the worms and clams locally.
I feed nori as well but not as often as I should probably. The butterflies devour it.

 

[dantimdad]

Nothing to apologize for. This is a topic that needs as much civil discussion as it can get.

The problem with chemically treating fish is that it weakens them. You may eliminate the target parasite but you make them vulnerable to other pathogens that they are exposed to. Bacterial infections are very uncommon in the hobby, except in fish that have been treated in a QT system. There, they are surprisingly common.
If someone is telling you they are selling you pathogen free fish, they are lying. Can't be done unless they are selling you fish that have been through an incinerator and the ashes packed in bleach. Anyone who sells a fish without symptoms is selling fish that are free of disease even though they may be carrying ich parasites.

I have been saying this for years. For humans and animals. We prescribe way too many medications.

There are SYSTEMS that can be certified pathogen free. I know of two breeders that have been certified. But, as soon as the fish are in a bag and shipped, all bets are off.

But, simple observation for 30-60 days can 95% of the time be enough to be sure of healthy fish. And, let's face it, 95% is just as good, if not better than medicating.

 

[Maacc]

There is no doubt in my mind that fish from HA will not have Ich, Velvet, Urinoma, or Brook. They also are very unlikely to have any harmful internal parasites. He isn't the only one. Another vendor is offering options on how much treatment you would like your fish to have. The one that did it previously went out of business.

The problem is that there isn't enough money to be made on the fish that are easy to QT. Most people won't pay the premium. The loses even experts have on harder fish, like Mandy's and many Anthias, make it unprofitable. Trust me when I tell you that even experts like Bobby (Humblefish) have experienced major loses both during and after quarantining.

There are also issues with accountability. Unless someone has QT'd everything wet in their tank, including coral and inverts, it doesn't matter if the fish come in without those pathogens. Odds are they will make it into the tank. And, if they do, the fish will have been weakened by the treatments and less likely to survive the exposure.

Totally agree here, even though I pay a premium for healthy fish, I am a huge believer in live and fresh frozen food to keep fish fat and healthy so that even of something does pop up, it disappears due to the fishes immune system.
I have only had one issue in years and it caused a complete fairy wrasse wipeout in my tank, so I am going fairy free for the next 6 months on my fish vet's recommendation.
I still find the methodology sound as every other fish in the tank, including other wrasses genus, are doing just fine.

 

[dantimdad]

You will soon be able to buy fish from a local vendor @Brew12 that have been observed for 30-60 days, depending on the species, before being sold. They will only be treated if absolutely necessary.

 

[Brew12]

You will soon be able to buy fish from a local vendor @Brew12 that have been observed for 30-60 days, depending on the species, before being sold. They will only be treated if absolutely necessary.

I am looking forward to having that option! I consider my tank pretty fully stocked right now but we will see how that goes. I'd love some other wrasses if I ever catch my 6-line.

 

[dantimdad]

I am looking forward to having that option! I consider my tank pretty fully stocked right now but we will see how that goes. I'd love some other wrasses if I ever catch my 6-line.

We aim to please! The nerve wracking part will be getting about 24-36 anthias in and hoping they make it.

 

[Brew12]

Quick phone pic of that baby frag. It might make it!

 

[Victoria M]

I am looking forward to having that option! I consider my tank pretty fully stocked right now but we will see how that goes. I'd love some other wrasses if I ever catch my 6-line.

He just flipped you the bird as he swam by.