Brightwell's Koral Recover-Anyone?????

[2una]

Now that there's some pretty interesting info........whats that like bordering on something like 40% Vibrio?

 

[2una]

@Reefnjunkie was that analysis ever discussed in a rtn thread anywhere here that i've missed somewhere?

 

[Reefnjunkie]

@Reefnjunkie was that analysis ever discussed in a rtn thread anywhere here that i've missed somewhere?

No it wasn’t- I’d like to but not sure which forum/sun forum is best. If you have a suggestion please let me know.

Initially when @AquaBiomics sampled the water Eli wasn’t able to get a reading (not the correct verbiage I’m sure but that’s the take away) so he was going to try at a later date when he did another batch and do so at a higher magnification (this was ~September/October last year) hoping to get a good reading which he did and I just received the results this week

 

[AquaBiomics]

No it wasn’t- I’d like to but not sure which forum/sun forum is best. If you have a suggestion please let me know.

Initially when @AquaBiomics sampled the water Eli wasn’t able to get a reading (not the correct verbiage I’m sure but that’s the take away) so he was going to try at a later date when he did another batch and do so at a higher magnification (this was ~September/October last year) hoping to get a good reading which he did and I just received the results this week

Yeah, to follow up on this - it all comes down to apparently low amounts of bacterial DNA in your sample. I hadnt fine tuned the procedure enough in the early round, so for you and one other client I was unable to get enough DNA sequences to work with. I've optimized things better since then and was able to get a nice dataset this time. Sorry for the delay!

And to clarify - I still do not see any pattern suggesting that high levels of the family Vibrionaceae (or its genus Vibrio) are a problem. While the name raises our eyebrows, its
a) present in all tanks
b) present at high levels in some very healthy tanks.

Most of the Vibrio in this (and most samples) is not identified to the species level. The database contains the known, identified species, but also contains lots of different kinds of "Vibrio sp."

Knowing the history of this tank, and noting the high levels of Vibrio, I looked into specific Vibrio variants in this sample. Turns out there is a single Vibrio type accounting for 5% of the community. That is a lot, for a single type. More interestingly, this specific type only shows up in one other tank, whose owner also reported coral tissue necrosis.

You wouldnt happen to have any material left from the tank, would you?

 

[drawman]

Yeah, to follow up on this - it all comes down to apparently low amounts of bacterial DNA in your sample. I hadnt fine tuned the procedure enough in the early round, so for you and one other client I was unable to get enough DNA sequences to work with. I've optimized things better since then and was able to get a nice dataset this time. Sorry for the delay!

And to clarify - I still do not see any pattern suggesting that high levels of the family Vibrionaceae (or its genus Vibrio) are a problem. While the name raises our eyebrows, its
a) present in all tanks
b) present at high levels in some very healthy tanks.

Most of the Vibrio in this (and most samples) is not identified to the species level. The database contains the known, identified species, but also contains lots of different kinds of "Vibrio sp."

Knowing the history of this tank, and noting the high levels of Vibrio, I looked into specific Vibrio variants in this sample. Turns out there is a single Vibrio type accounting for 5% of the community. That is a lot, for a single type. More interestingly, this specific type only shows up in one other tank, whose owner also reported coral tissue necrosis.

You wouldnt happen to have any material left from the tank, would you?

I'm curious is this "type" of vibrio one that is identified at the species level?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Very high odor of Teak tree oil, I have used it with success for healing of bleached monti and scroll coral. I also use restore for this purpose

 

[AquaBiomics]

I'm curious is this "type" of vibrio one that is identified at the species level?

No, in the GreenGenes database it's annotated as Vibrio sp based on the authors' analysis. In other words, not identified to the species level. Comparing with different, less carefully curated database supports this interpretation. It's not similar enough to any described species to support calling it a member of that species.

And to be clear, this is the case for most of the Vibrio in our aquariums and the oceans. I don't mean to make this one sound special for being unknown, only its pattern of occurrence here is interesting.

 

[drawman]

No, in the GreenGenes database it's annotated as Vibrio sp based on the authors' analysis. In other words, not identified to the species level. Comparing with different, less carefully curated database supports this interpretation. It's not similar enough to any described species to support calling it a member of that species.

And to be clear, this is the case for most of the Vibrio in our aquariums and the oceans. I don't mean to make this one sound special for being unknown, only its pattern of occurrence here is interesting.

I guess I'm curious if you could potentially track it (or other variants of vibrio) to see if they anecdotally are more prevalent in tanks undergoing STN/RTN. I can see it could take more effort than it's worth.

 

[2una]

And to clarify - I still do not see any pattern suggesting that high levels of the family Vibrionaceae (or its genus Vibrio) are a problem. While the name raises our eyebrows, its
a) present in all tanks
b) present at high levels in some very healthy tanks.

Thanks for weighing in, is all over my head but i'm tagging along out of interest.
Maybe also something like this comes into the equation

What the authors speculated was that normally benign resident bacteria could be transformed into killers through a genetic switch triggered by something called "quorum sensing" -

Posted by @robert over in here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/possible-solution-to-end-rtn-forever.563527/page-39#post-5858594

@PSXerholic @Thales @Lasse @Jose Mayo

 

[2una]

@Lasse @Thales
Both you guys are larger commercial aquarium guys right? .....so one might assume elements/pollutants are looked after pretty well.
Have either of you had work tank rtn issues that you suspected were bacterial related that got to unstoppable ?
Just wondering what's the answer as i'm guessing there is also some sort of UV system behind those tanks also.

 

[AquaBiomics]

I guess I'm curious if you could potentially track it (or other variants of vibrio) to see if they anecdotally are more prevalent in tanks undergoing STN/RTN. I can see it could take more effort than it's worth.

As far as I can tell this particular strain has only shown up in 2 tanks out of all those I've tested, both of which were reporting RTN/STN. Doesnt prove anything but it suggests a signal worth following up on.

 

[Lasse]

According to RTN/STN in large tanks - @Sallstrom are the specialist in our facility on this. I can only add that the genus Vibrio is very common in all saltwater and many species can become pathogens both for fish and humans. In fish - it is always in connection with stress in one or another way. Many Vibrio species can be internal - causing blood poisoning and hemorrhage, often indicated by small red needle pinpricks in the abdominal region of the fish.

I would not be surprised if some (or all vibrio) can turn to be a pathogen to SPS - but can´t answer if it is a primary or a secondary pathogen.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thales]

@Lasse @Thales
Both you guys are larger commercial aquarium guys right? .....so one might assume elements/pollutants are looked after pretty well.
Have either of you had work tank rtn issues that you suspected were bacterial related that got to unstoppable ?
Just wondering what's the answer as i'm guessing there is also some sort of UV system behind those tanks also.

I think you might be surprised how not well some of that is looked after in some facilities. At the Aquarium there have definitely been some RTN/STN issues, mostly STN. I think we have suspected forever that they were bacterial related, but there was no way to check on that. In all of my 40 years in the hobby I have never had an RTN/STN wipeout, it just kind of burns itself out. Some of the systems at the Aquarium have UV, but none of the coral systems. I ran UV at home 18 years ago, and stopped because it was a lot of work and I saw no difference when I removed it. YMMV.

 

[2una]

I think you might be surprised how not well some of that is looked after in some facilities. At the Aquarium there have definitely been some RTN/STN issues, mostly STN. I think we have suspected forever that they were bacterial related, but there was no way to check on that. In all of my 40 years in the hobby I have never had an RTN/STN wipeout, it just kind of burns itself out. Some of the systems at the Aquarium have UV, but none of the coral systems. I ran UV at home 18 years ago, and stopped because it was a lot of work and I saw no difference when I removed it. YMMV.

'ok thanks for your input

 

[lexinverts]

I think you might be surprised how not well some of that is looked after in some facilities. At the Aquarium there have definitely been some RTN/STN issues, mostly STN. I think we have suspected forever that they were bacterial related, but there was no way to check on that. In all of my 40 years in the hobby I have never had an RTN/STN wipeout, it just kind of burns itself out. Some of the systems at the Aquarium have UV, but none of the coral systems. I ran UV at home 18 years ago, and stopped because it was a lot of work and I saw no difference when I removed it. YMMV.

@Thales it would be cool to see a sample from the big aquarium!