Can AWC be adequate for my situation so that I don't need to do 2-part?

[dankaqua]

But

But doesnt the ato replace the evaporated water with fresh water thus leaving the salinity the same?

Yes, that's what the ATO does, but not what an AWC does...

 

[dankaqua]

ok, I should reword that...

The ATO just looks at the water level (i.e. in the sump) and it tops off with fresh water.

The AWC pulls out a specified amount of tank water and replaces with pre-mixed salt water.

...all of which sounds like the salinity shouldn't change...

But, as pointed out above, your salinity will not remain constant.

Why? Well, when are you doing the AWC and when are you doing the ATO?

If you are running constant ATO with Kalk, then you run the risk of pushing your pH too high.

And running ATO slowly at night is a good way to stabilize pH.

So assuming a night time ATO... then when is your AWC running?

If you are running your AWC right after the ATO cycle completes, then the salinity should not be affected (much). But I'd still monitor salinity because it's a big impact.

And if you run AWC many hours after your ATO cycle has completed, your salinity will go up considerably.

...hope I'm making sense....

 

[BeejReef]

As I understand it, the awc pumps won't be the exact same. If you pump in a few ounces more than you pump out, your salinity will creep up bc more has to evap b4 ato will trigger. Conversely, if u pump out a few ounces more, it gets made up for w ato water.

Probly not a huge swing, but your concept was very infrequent testing and minimizing the risk of a dosing failure.

There is arguably more to go wrong w all the sensors, float valves, pumps, and probes than w a dosing set up.

I'm no pro. Don't let me talk u out of it. The pushback is way more about the sparse testing than ur approach. Who doesn't like water changes on a newer tank?

 

[JohnIsNewToReefKeeping]

ok, I should reword that...

The ATO just looks at the water level (i.e. in the sump) and it tops off with fresh water.

The AWC pulls out a specified amount of tank water and replaces with pre-mixed salt water.

...all of which sounds like the salinity shouldn't change...

But, as pointed out above, your salinity will not remain constant.

Why? Well, when are you doing the AWC and when are you doing the ATO?

If you are running constant ATO with Kalk, then you run the risk of pushing your pH too high.

And running ATO slowly at night is a good way to stabilize pH.

So assuming a night time ATO... then when is your AWC running?

If you are running your AWC right after the ATO cycle completes, then the salinity should not be affected (much). But I'd still monitor salinity because it's a big impact.

And if you run AWC many hours after your ATO cycle has completed, your salinity will go up considerably.

...hope I'm making sense....

The thing is this AWC unit and ato all in one either does a water change or topping off the water not both at the same time so there wont be a point when a water change is taking place and additional fresh water is being added thus not changing the salinity.

AWC Auto Water Changer (Plus ATO)

Auto Water Change Plus Auto Top Off Change your reef tank's water automatically with AutoAqua's AWC system. AWC & ATO All-In-One. Water changes are one of the most time-consuming maintenance tasks with saltwater aquariums. There has been plenty of debate over how much water you should change...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

"During the water change, the output pump will pump water out of your tank our sump into a wastewater reservoir, or floor drain until the low water sensor is activated, telling the controller to turn on the input pump until the high water sensor is tripped, completing the water change and then reverting to a top off controller."

so im kind of confused on why you are saying, "If you are running constant ATO with Kalk,.."

And i think it will be fine to just have the ato run when ever it is needed to avoid having high spikes when kalk is released into the water from the ATO

Aswell i run a refudgium during the night what the DT lights are off to help aid in keeping a constant ph

 

[DancingWind]

The thing is this AWC unit and ato all in one either does a water change or topping off the water not both at the same time so there wont be a point when a water change is taking place and additional fresh water is being added thus not changing the salinity.

AWC Auto Water Changer (Plus ATO)

Auto Water Change Plus Auto Top Off Change your reef tank's water automatically with AutoAqua's AWC system. AWC & ATO All-In-One. Water changes are one of the most time-consuming maintenance tasks with saltwater aquariums. There has been plenty of debate over how much water you should change...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

"During the water change, the output pump will pump water out of your tank our sump into a wastewater reservoir, or floor drain until the low water sensor is activated, telling the controller to turn on the input pump until the high water sensor is tripped, completing the water change and then reverting to a top off controller."

so im kind of confused on why you are saying, "If you are running constant ATO with Kalk,.."

And i think it will be fine to just have the ato run when ever it is needed to avoid having high spikes when kalk is released into the water from the ATO

Aswell i run a refudgium during the night what the DT lights are off to help aid in keeping a constant ph

Dude that is not precision engineering pump for AWC's, that is just some optical sensors slapped on the side of the tank. For test free AWC you need 2 pumps that pump exactly the same amount of water and ATO cycle that does not overlap with AWC.
Sure AutoAqua has you covered on ATO vs AWC problem. But it will NOT guarantee you input == output.
When people go AWC they use specialised dosing pumps like Littermeter, DOS, or GHL MAXI pumps and calibrate them carefully. Those pumps don't have to deal with skimmers in the same system, with algea and critters on sensors, with moving water, salt-creep, with the fact that there is delay between water pouring in and water level registering.
Don't get me wrong that thing probably works fine but I would not trust it to leave unattended

Also when you mix sw for AWC you make it exactly the salinity you want. Don't make it higher.
Awc problem is that even if you calibrate perfectly initially input and output over time they drift. And since AWC usually involve doing many small WCs frequently you end up with much higher water volumes (it's the nature of water change 2 50% changes result in 75% water change not 100 - so if you do smaller ones - you need to do more of them to make an impact) and at those volumes even small differences start to add up - hence constant testing.

 

[dankaqua]

so im kind of confused on why you are saying, "If you are running constant ATO with Kalk,.."

...sorry... just saying that you really need to be careful with an "always on" ATO which is putting kalkwasser into your system.

For example, from the reviews of the AutoAqua AWC Auto Water Changer :

The 4th unit failed on port 3, but this time it failed ON. So the stupid thing pulled the entire volume of my topoff reservoir and dumped it into my tank. 20 gallons. Probably 12-15 gallons of overflow onto my floor.

20 gallons of kalkwasser is likely a death sentence for all inhabitants of a 75 gallon tank (kalk has a high pH of 12.00+).

The other reviews have similar stories about pump failures and other issues.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that AWC/ATO.

I think trying to decrease maintenance is a good objective. BRS has a whole series on it ("ULM tanks" I think they called them). Those guys are selling products but the info is still good.

Maybe best to focus on just the ATO. It's a very popular method of automation for reef tanks so there is a lot of info out there about it.

I think pretty much everyone who puts an ATO on their system is happy they did, so it is worth some time to pick a good one.

 

[JohnIsNewToReefKeeping]

alright cool thank you for spending the time to help me understand. @dankaqua , @DancingWind , @BeejReef

do you guys agree with , for me, setting up carbo-calcium and then doing WC when ever needed to replace the trace elements? ofc testing alk once a week and calcium every other week should help with my chances with having a successful reef. Also I have a uv light that will help with any bacteria blooms

But since I'll be start dosing I think it shouldn't be problem with starting to dabble with acros ? I have the black boxes right now but trying to pick up some used ai hydras.

 

[DancingWind]

WC is not the best way to replace trace elements. And you will only know that you need trace elements if you do an ICP test. if trace elements are being consistently consumed then you have to do constant water changes to maintain them. Doing a 20% wc means 80% is old water.
When you start dosing you will want to test everyday at the same time (even better if you check ph level at the testing time) until you can comfortably predict your kH consumption and how much dosing you need. Once you dial it in you can do once a week or 2 week testing. softies and LPS should be fine.
For acros those are literally the most difficult corals to keep. If you are not going to monitor your water at least each week I would not recommend getting them.

Black boxes are known to grow acros ... well decent ones for sure (mars aqua, viparspectra, dSunys. And reef breeder photons v2 are almost high end). Just rent a par meter form your LFS and test the light levels.
Acros also need strong flow. And very stable chemistry.
So how about some stylophora or seriatophora.

 

[DancingWind]

By the way ... how do you know you need to dose? did you test your kH consumtion?

 

[JohnIsNewToReefKeeping]

By the way ... how do you know you need to dose? did you test your kH consumtion?
[/QUOTE
I mean for a long term situation I will be dosing carbo- calcium because I do have a few lps in my tank already and I do plan on buy more now and having a mixed reef since i will be dosing.

 

[JohnIsNewToReefKeeping]

And since im dosing ofc I will need to monitor the water now. Before I wanted to do the least amount of maintenance thus planning on doing a softy softy dominated tank. But now since im going to be dosing and actually takeing care of the water Im thinking of just going mainly lps and softy and some acros here and there.

 

[DancingWind]

And since im dosing ofc I will need to monitor the water now. Before I wanted to do the least amount of maintenance thus planning on doing a softy softy dominated tank. But now since im going to be dosing and actually takeing care of the water Im thinking of just going mainly lps and softy and some acros here and there.

If you are not going with sps - then use full all-for-reef or one of the balling products. You will not have to use gallons of the stuff and like I said it provides a better mix of elements than just plain 2 part.
of course once you will actually start growing lps and testing and dosing you will get a better picture Good luck

 

[Radman73]

A little surprised by the negative reactions so far.

75gal is prob a little large to do just AWC. But, I wouldn’t let that keep you from trying. You’ll need to still test in the short term to ensure that your AWC is meeting the needs of your tank. See if you can find a balance for 4-6 months and then you can likely reduce your testing to occasional.

Water changes alone have long been sufficient for smaller tanks. I never dosed my 29gal biocube and it thrived, including some SPS one of which was an acro. You may just need to do larger WC’s than you were expecting.

 

[JohnIsNewToReefKeeping]

A little surprised by the negative reactions so far.

75gal is prob a little large to do just AWC. But, I wouldn’t let that keep you from trying. You’ll need to still test in the short term to ensure that your AWC is meeting the needs of your tank. See if you can find a balance for 4-6 months and then you can likely reduce your testing to occasional.

Water changes alone have long been sufficient for smaller tanks. I never dosed my 29gal biocube and it thrived, including some SPS one of which was an acro. You may just need to do larger WC’s than you were expecting.

Yeah I’m in the same boat. didn’t think I would be attacked and told to get out of the hobby just because I wanted to try something new.

 

[Radman73]

Yeah I’m in the same boat. didn’t think I would be attacked and told to get out of the hobby just because I wanted to try something new.

Yeah. If your comfortable spending $30-$50/month on salt to avoid having to test, more power to you lol! Or maybe it takes $75? Who cares if it works and the $ isn’t an object.

I’m a lazy reefer myself and went the Trident route. But I have a 220 with ~300 total volume.

I went with AWC on my 60 cube for a while though eventually supplemented with a calcrx when demand increased.

 

[BeejReef]

I think you've got a solid plan with the carbo calcium or with your water change approach.

 

[Scuba Mike]

FYI Bulk Reef Supply has an entire YouTube series for ULM tanks. They test several methods in 6 tanks. I was watching the recap today, good to hear you do not need to spend a ton of cash to have a nice tank

 

[adimas]

I really don't understand why a lot of people are saying that if I run a AWC that I it will be very important to monitor the salinity. My thought process is say my tank is at 1.025 then i'll make sure that the barrel holding the saltwater is at 1.026 so that for what ever reason some salt gets lost it should stay around 1.025. And obviously after mixing the salt, making sure that salinity is where I want it to be.

Also for the AWC I plan on buying this
( https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/awc-auto-water-changer-plus-ato-autoaqua.html?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Shopping>Auto+Top+Off&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=7373341438&hsa_cam=2061909484&hsa_grp=75007229934&hsa_ad=363030124023&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-332082194793la-806835800794&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkKnyBRDwARIsALtxe7gXp0x9Ac1RGXnwjr-pIMqJx3NxWzEbZ3k8gjjzLQ6i2Y3oz7--CIEaAmrREALw_wcB )

Which has a ATO system built into it so there wont be a problem where a water change is happening and the ato mistakes it as a lot of evaporation.

plus could I use a higher grade of salt where the calcium& alk is slightly more elevated So that calc would sit around 420 and alk around 11.

But honestly I think the best way for me to come to a conclusion is to have my reef tank fully stocked with all the lps corals I want and then see if the consumption of alk and calcium is greater than or less than of having a awc system could replace then see whether or not to continue with dosing.

I just started using this AWC/ATO system in December.
I have a 90 gallon with mixed reef. The main reason I tried this system was because I was tired of hauling the 5 gallon buckets.
I have it set to change 2 gallons a day and it only starts the WC after the ATO has topped off. So the salinity stays at 1.025. I have had no fluctuations in the salinity at all. My makeup salt water is 1.025 (may increase to 1.026) and I use RODI for the make up water. I have been doing weekly testing and haven't had to dose calcium or alk yet. Mag was low this week so have that going on the doser now.

 

[BHHOWARD]

If you want precise matches for input and output Auto Water Change (AWC), there are a lot of folks using Stenner double-head pumps: https://stenner.com/products/pumps/double-head-fixed-output

That would solve your salinity issues.

You would still need Auto Top Off (ATO) and that could be done with kalk or maybe another solution.

 

[BHHOWARD]

FYI Bulk Reef Supply has an entire YouTube series for ULM tanks. They test several methods in 6 tanks. I was watching the recap today, good to hear you do not need to spend a ton of cash to have a nice tank

+1

Here's the link to the Ultra Low Maintenance (ULM) first episode:
Here's a recap of the series: