Can BIOPELLETS reduce PO4 and NO3 holistically?

[I never finish anythi]

I started biopellets in my 200g BB about 6 weeks ago on 08/07. I dosed 40ml MB7 daily for 4 weeks, then dropped to 20ml for weeks 5-6. I dosed 12ml Nopox (3ml, 4x daily) during this timeframe. The MB7 and Nopox were intended to kickstart the biopellets.

I had little drops in N starting from week 4 to week 6, and the past couple of days the biopellets really started to kick in, so I stopped the MB7, and dropped the Nopox to 9ml today (hoping to get off of Nopox entirely soon). I'm looking for a soft landing with my N around 10.

Like you, I was hoping my P would begin to normalize with my N, but so far that has not happened, and probably won't as per Randy's comments. My N was 62 before starting, and my P was off the scale (blinking 200) on my Hanna Phosphorus checker. The last week of N readings are below, and the P is still off the scale, i.e. not budging. I'm wondering if I need to start GFO alongside the biopellets, or if I should take a wait and see approach.

[/Q

I have been running a bio pellet reactor for a year and a half now. My phosphates remain around 0.03 ppm and my nitrates are typically at 3 ppm. The only downside I have experienced with my bio pellet setup is my skimmer gets filled with bio pellet pudding. I have a 150-gallon tank and I run 2 cups of bio pellets in my octopus reactor. I made a DIY macro algae refugium using the Kessel tuna 80 light. I should receive my cheato tomorrow. I will let you know how it works out once I am up and running. The bio pellet reactor was removed in place of my new refugium.

I have the same numbers with my bio pellet reactor. 75g I just add 1 cup of bio pellets in the reactor. I get a little scared on bottoming the nutrs out tho .

 

[Saltees]

Is there any reason you seem insistent on the waste-away and biopellets instead of just dosing carbon in a more controlled way? I've tried biopellets a couple of times and bounced off - and most of the people I know who've tried them had similar experiences to you. They seem to be really really slow to come online, and then seem to be inconsistent (probably due to the changes in surface area).

It has always seemed a bit like kalkwasser in the ATO to me - it works in a sense, but it's just a really suboptimal and inconsistent way to do it compared to just using a dosing pump and knowing exactly what's happening.

FWIW - there's way more involved here than just Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorus - and given that you're running multiple biological means of export (chaeto, biopellets, waste-away) and multiple means of chemical reduction - it's entirely possible that one of them is causing your tank to be limited on something (iron? Silicon? Who knows?) that the other ones need.

I would consider this as a diligent attempt on BP with better odds by adding Waste Away as per manufacturer’s recommendation since I’d started with their NP Active Pearls BP. I had also my Chaeto and ATS removed in favor of REEFMAT, therefore it’s just the BP and Skimmer for the last 2-3 months.

As for liquid carbon dosing, I had my dues on TM Elimi NP and TM Bacto Balance for a period of 6 months prior turning to BP as an “easier” holistic solution, where the bacteria does the scaling according to nutrients. Then, my run away PO4 issue were kept in checked in tandem with GFO if needed to.

I’m current on Fish Only with PVC and bare bottom, so the high nutrients does not bother the fishes, but unless I can better control my nutrients, I can’t and will not introduce my corals back in.

I’m however not in a rush as I’m the process of aquascaping my tank.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Hey @Saltees you're the OP of this post and it's gone through many pages of good discussion, but going back to your original question of why BPs are NOT working for you. I've skimmed the first few pages: You've run it 3-6 months and have thrown a wide range of things at it unsuccessfully. i.e. countless waste away, switched BP reactor, etc. Your goal was to eventually get to heavy SPS. However your number aren't bad by any means. I know this is a BP experiment for NO3/PO4 which is where I chimed in since I was on the same journey. It's working for me and others fairly successfully; not trying to rub it in, but highlight it works. =) So trying go back to see how it can work for you.

Your fish are now in QT which is where your testing is being done, but you don't have much for bact housing with those PVCs from your photos. I can't count your fish, but healthy numbers. That combined with overfeeding in QT tells me your numbers are actually VERY good all things considered. Maybe they are working. You just can't expect DT level parameters without all the other things in the tank balancing things out.

Summary: I think you'll realize you're doing great once you have everything up and running and allow your tank to settle down and find the balance. And your reactor and everything else is working as expected. SPS are fine in the 15-20+ nitrates. Prob even great for them. The PO4 is a bit high, but plenty of tanks in the 0.08 to 0.1 SPS success range. I have 30+ fish myself and it took almost 2 months for me to establish the BP driven bottom baseline. And that's on top of the 6-8 months that my tank took to settle down after my upgrade. My BP is actually working too well for me personally establishing a NO3 bottom of 8.1. I rather have it in the 15-20 nitrate for my SPS and I'm running 2/3 of the recommended amount. I'm about to do another QT round and add more fish for me to overfeed to naturally drive up NO3.

It's going to work for you!

 

[Saltees]

Hey @Saltees you're the OP of this post and it's gone through many pages of good discussion, but going back to your original question of why BPs are NOT working for you. I've skimmed the first few pages: You've run it 3-6 months and have thrown a wide range of things at it unsuccessfully. i.e. countless waste away, switched BP reactor, etc. Your goal was to eventually get to heavy SPS. However your number aren't bad by any means. I know this is a BP experiment for NO3/PO4 which is where I chimed in since I was on the same journey. It's working for me and others fairly successfully; not trying to rub it in, but highlight it works. =) So trying go back to see how it can work for you.

Your fish are now in QT which is where your testing is being done, but you don't have much for bact housing with those PVCs from your photos. I can't count your fish, but healthy numbers. That combined with overfeeding in QT tells me your numbers are actually VERY good all things considered. Maybe they are working. You just can't expect DT level parameters without all the other things in the tank balancing things out.

Summary: I think you'll realize you're doing great once you have everything up and running and allow your tank to settle down and find the balance. And your reactor and everything else is working as expected. SPS are fine in the 15-20+ nitrates. Prob even great for them. The PO4 is a bit high, but plenty of tanks in the 0.08 to 0.1 SPS success range. I have 30+ fish myself and it took almost 2 months for me to establish the BP driven bottom baseline. And that's on top of the 6-8 months that my tank took to settle down after my upgrade. My BP is actually working too well for me personally establishing a NO3 bottom of 8.1. I rather have it in the 15-20 nitrate for my SPS and I'm running 2/3 of the recommended amount. I'm about to do another QT round and add more fish for me to overfeed to naturally drive up NO3.

It's going to work for you!

@Saltyanimals Thanks for the very encouraging words!

One of the very reason I went with Copper QT in my display tank, was that it has plenty of bio media to process the ammonia. And according to Humble.fish, my kilos of SEACHEM MATRIX/SIPORAX remain unaffected by COPPER, making coral reintroduction a breeze.

While my corals remain fallow for 76days or more in the holding tank, gives me time to praziquantel and observation post copper.

I really hope BP works during the next month or two.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could you kindly review my post from Dec 16 and let me know your thoughts? The only change was adding MB7, and I had a strong response. Do you think this is in spite of MB7, or unrelated to MB7? Maybe there's something I'm missing here and would appreciate your opinion.

I cannot tell if ongoing mb7 dosing is useful from your posts.

You were using pellets, NOPOX (a bit earlier) , and added bacteria. I don’t find the sudden drop in nitrate from 26 ppm to 20 ppm on adding bacteria to be significant. I doubt the test has sufficient reproducibility for such a small change. Phosphate did appear to drop a bunch (a few tenths if a ppm), but I’m not really seeing a likely way for it do so without using up more nitrate.

In any case, the best way to test the usefulness of the mb7 is to use it for a few weeks, changing nothing else and track the tank appearance and N and P, then stop the mb7 and change nothing else and track the tank for a few weeks.

it would not surprise me if the mb7 is a useful food for filter feeders, but I would be surprised if it was substantially more than that after a few doses.

 

[Saltyanimals]

@Saltyanimals Thanks for the very encouraging words!

One of the very reason I went with Copper QT in my display tank, was that it has plenty of bio media to process the ammonia. And according to Humble.fish, my kilos of SEACHEM MATRIX/SIPORAX remain unaffected by COPPER, making coral reintroduction a breeze.

While my corals remain fallow for 76days or more in the holding tank, gives me time to praziquantel and observation post copper.

I really hope BP works during the next month or two.

I actually assumed you had some way to manage ammonia otherwise your QT would fail with that many fish. I also saw readings on the Matrix as a Copper safe media from an absorption/release perspective so your tank is processing ammonia sufficiently. However it's still an interim stage and your tank will continue to settle once your rocks, any substrate and all filtration is back in so I would assume it's not operating at max efficiency at the moment. That's all I'm saying. And when the tank settles down and eventually gets to a balance state will you be able to truly test the effectiveness of BPs in your tank. Point here is maybe it's too early to say BPs aren't working for you because of all the changes going on.

Once you get your BPs to work.. then you may be down a pH pickle like I am now. =) I forgot all about the pH impact from BP on top of an already low pH from the Ca reactor. There was much more use thus discussions on BPs years back. Another problem for another discussion for another day.

 

[92Miata]

I would consider this as a diligent attempt on BP with better odds by adding Waste Away as per manufacturer’s recommendation since I’d started with their NP Active Pearls BP. I had also my Chaeto and ATS removed in favor of REEFMAT, therefore it’s just the BP and Skimmer for the last 2-3 months.

As for liquid carbon dosing, I had my dues on TM Elimi NP and TM Bacto Balance for a period of 6 months prior turning to BP as an “easier” holistic solution, where the bacteria does the scaling according to nutrients. Then, my run away PO4 issue were kept in checked in tandem with GFO if needed to.

I’m current on Fish Only with PVC and bare bottom, so the high nutrients does not bother the fishes, but unless I can better control my nutrients, I can’t and will not introduce my corals back in.

I’m however not in a rush as I’m the process of aquascaping my tank.

None of this sounds "easier" - you've gone from dosing, to dosing and running a reactor and GFO. I'm questioning why you're being diligent about this at all - when you had a system that worked and was less complicated - and now you have a system you're afraid to put corals in. Why is the goal here "Get BP to work" and not "Get the system to the point where it can keep the corals I want"?

Also - why do you just have PVC in the tank and not rock? Did you have rock before? Are you planning on adding the rock back once you get the BP Reactor (and all the other things you've added to support it) stable? Because that's going to change things and the bioreactor is going to take time to recover.


"holistic" and "natural" aren't a thing in reef tanks. They're not natural systems - they need steering and inputs.

 

[Saltees]

I actually assumed you had some way to manage ammonia otherwise your QT would fail with that many fish. I also saw readings on the Matrix as a Copper safe media from an absorption/release perspective so your tank is processing ammonia sufficiently. However it's still an interim stage and your tank will continue to settle once your rocks, any substrate and all filtration is back in so I would assume it's not operating at max efficiency at the moment. That's all I'm saying. And when the tank settles down and eventually gets to a balance state will you be able to truly test the effectiveness of BPs in your tank. Point here is maybe it's too early to say BPs aren't working for you because of all the changes going on.

Once you get your BPs to work.. then you may be down a pH pickle like I am now. =) I forgot all about the pH impact from BP on top of an already low pH from the Ca reactor. There was much more use thus discussions on BPs years back. Another problem for another discussion for another day.

Yeah, I’m aware of PH rabbit hole.

I am seeking opinions as such like yours that BP can bring down both PO4 and NO3 respectively, instead of having to add another mean to handle them individually.

I gave each mean 6-12 months to work. So far, I had tried ATS, refugium, liquid carbon dosing, no3 solid carbon dosing, LaCl, GFO, etc. So far, none of the above achieved the numbers for SPS individually.

I am hoping the BP can do it singularly.

 

[Saltees]

None of this sounds "easier" - you've gone from dosing, to dosing and running a reactor and GFO. I'm questioning why you're being diligent about this at all - when you had a system that worked and was less complicated - and now you have a system you're afraid to put corals in. Why is the goal here "Get BP to work" and not "Get the system to the point where it can keep the corals I want"?

Also - why do you just have PVC in the tank and not rock? Did you have rock before? Are you planning on adding the rock back once you get the BP Reactor (and all the other things you've added to support it) stable? Because that's going to change things and the bioreactor is going to take time to recover.


"holistic" and "natural" aren't a thing in reef tanks. They're not natural systems - they need steering and inputs.

You’re so right! Nothing we do in reefing is natural!

I’m interested in instrumentations and processes, i.e. enjoying the journey not so much in the end game.

I’m commissioning a new scape. Corals (mostly LPS) are being moved to the holding tank for 76 days fallow at least. All rocks and sand in display are bleached and dried. The whole system is being coppered with fishes and PVC for 30 days to eradicate any ICH, followed by praziquantel for any flukes.

For my next rig, it’s gonna be SPS heavy with the current QT’ed 40+ fish load. Hence I was hoping to establish the nutrient export mean(s) during the “Fish Only With PVC” stage, ie. in your words…"Get the system to the point where it can keep the corals I want.”

Cheers!

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Well that worked. Maybe a little too well. The Nopox seemed to have woken up the bacteria. I will stop the Nopox and continue with the daily 50ml MB7 dose going forward. Just a little scary that my NO3 went down so much in just one day.

Hit my NO3 goal today with BP and daily MB7.
Will continue to monitor the PO4 which still seems high relative to NO3.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hit my NO3 goal today with BP and daily MB7.
Will continue to monitor the PO4 which still seems high relative to NO3.

The current values of 5 ppm nitrate and 0.1 ppm phosphate are fine., IMO.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

The current values of 5 ppm nitrate and 0.1 ppm phosphate are fine., IMO.

Okay, thanks Randy.
I always see these ratios, like 100:1, Redfield, etc... Nothing very definitive.
Seems the right balance is unique per tank, so I'll just stay the course and see what happens.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, thanks Randy.
I always see these ratios, like 100:1, Redfield, etc... Nothing very definitive.
Seems the right balance is unique per tank, so I'll just stay the course and see what happens.

My strong suggestion is to avoid any discussion of ratios when considering target values for nutrients. There's no evidence (IMO) that it is useful to do so, and plenty of obvious cases where a ratio leads poor results.

For example, why would one think that a tank will respond similarly to all of these nutrient cases with the same ratio?

1,000 ppm nitrate and 10 ppm phosphate
10 ppm nitrate and 0.1 ppm phosphate
0.1 ppm nitrate and 0.001 ppm phosphate

IMO, one is not ever going to make a serious nutrient mistake by targeting the actual values as opposed to ratios, say

2-10 ppm nitrate
0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate

or whatever variation of that seems to suit you.

 

[Saltees]

As part of my transition from Copper to PraziPRO, I made a 80% Water Change, it saw my NO3 dropped from 25 to 3+ppm immediately, but PO4 was still running at over 0.9ppm. I will do a dilution with RODI to read PO4 next. PO4 is indeed a “sticky” issue.

I’ll use TM Elimi Phos Rapid (LaCl) to reduce PO4 once the fishes are out of their PraziPRO treatment.

Currently the biopellets are still running but without skimmer (a condition of running prazi).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I made a 80% Water Change, it saw my NO3 dropped from 25 to 3+ppm immediately, but PO4 was still running at over 0.9ppm. I will do a dilution with RODI to read PO4 next. PO4 is indeed a “sticky” issue.

Yep, that's pretty much as expected.

 

[Saltees]

Finally I’m outta the prazi treatment. The readings as follows… BP ain’t putting a dent in the blinking 0.90ppm+ PO4. Starting with dosing 10ml TM Elimi Phos Rapid (LaCl) daily into 5 micron sock, see if it drops in a week.

 

[chipchipbro]

Finally I’m outta the prazi treatment. The readings as follows… BP ain’t putting a dent in the blinking 0.90ppm+ PO4. Starting with dosing 10ml TM Elimi Phos Rapid (LaCl) daily into 5 micron sock, see if it drops in a week.

It def. will!
Dont lower it too quick please..
U could always dilute it with RODI and dose it diluted in an easy way.

 

[Saltees]

Thanks! I had very good result before with TM Elimi Phos Rapid, but I dosed in the skimmer neck instead and resulted in an (slightly) out of range ICP for lanthanum. No ill effects on my Tangs whatsoever. This time I’m dosing into 5 micron sock 10ml over 10 hours during the day where I am around to change the sock if necessary. I think the TM stuff is pretty watered down, just not sure what’s my actual PO4 level, may do a dilution to find out via Hanna.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Thanks! I had very good result before with TM Elimi Phos Rapid, but I dosed in the skimmer neck instead and resulted in an (slightly) out of range ICP for lanthanum. No ill effects on my Tangs whatsoever. This time I’m dosing into 5 micron sock 10ml over 10 hours during the day where I am around to change the sock if necessary. I think the TM stuff is pretty watered down, just not sure what’s my actual PO4 level, may do a dilution to find out via Hanna.

Looking great! I've always been wary of the LaCl and stayed away because of my fish. Sure there are ways to dilute and drop into the skimmer, but I found GFO to be an equal and effective solution as well. GFO almost works too well at bringing down PO4 sometimes too fast. The problem naturally is how quickly GFO may exhaust depending on the PO4 in your tank and source which means GFO $$. LaCl is suppose to be the cheaper solution but just makes me nervous.

Your parameters are looking great. Keep it up.

To update on my own experience, the BPs have maintain my NO3 almost spot on now. I hit my bottom baseline on Dec 29th to 8.1 ppm. Been between 7.9 - 8.3 since then. That's pretty amazing to think about how consistent it maintains it. I did notice something else on the actual pellets. My flow through the reactor slowed down and/or just mild clumping occurred. Not sure how long since I didn't immediately notice, but when I did I noticed it was orange /red discolored. Researching that's likely the bacterial mulm that needed to rub off with the tumbling. I've let it tumble more aggressive over the weekend to see if the red stuff comes off and goes into the skimmer. No changes to the NO3 so FYI if others find some discoloration.

PO4 on the other hand continues to be maintained only through my passive GFO. I've learned to accept this reality as it continues to be a passive bag that seems to change infrequently so not too much work there. Go Biopellets for NO3!

 

[Saltees]

Looking great! I've always been wary of the LaCl and stayed away because of my fish. Sure there are ways to dilute and drop into the skimmer, but I found GFO to be an equal and effective solution as well. GFO almost works too well at bringing down PO4 sometimes too fast. The problem naturally is how quickly GFO may exhaust depending on the PO4 in your tank and source which means GFO $$. LaCl is suppose to be the cheaper solution but just makes me nervous.

Your parameters are looking great. Keep it up.

To update on my own experience, the BPs have maintain my NO3 almost spot on now. I hit my bottom baseline on Dec 29th to 8.1 ppm. Been between 7.9 - 8.3 since then. That's pretty amazing to think about how consistent it maintains it. I did notice something else on the actual pellets. My flow through the reactor slowed down and/or just mild clumping occurred. Not sure how long since I didn't immediately notice, but when I did I noticed it was orange /red discolored. Researching that's likely the bacterial mulm that needed to rub off with the tumbling. I've let it tumble more aggressive over the weekend to see if the red stuff comes off and goes into the skimmer. No changes to the NO3 so FYI if others find some discoloration.

PO4 on the other hand continues to be maintained only through my passive GFO. I've learned to accept this reality as it continues to be a passive bag that seems to change infrequently so not too much work there. Go Biopellets for NO3!

I hear you totally!

I was maintaining PO4 well with LaCl till the point where my ICP showing an (slightly) out of range lanthanum.

When I switched to GFO I was in for a rude awakening, I was going through a KG of ROWAPHOS in 3-4 weeks. That went on for about 5-6months, before giving BP a shot, hoping to drop PO4 as well as NO3.

So far it’s does nothing to PO4. Therefore I’m doing BP a favor by lowering the PO4 to below 0.2ppm with LaCl, and see if that will keep the PO4 stable.