duberii
Valuable Member
I just got some Caribsea ocean direct sand, and it claims it can reduce or eliminate the need to cycle. I'm a bit skeptical. Does anybody have experiences that confirm or deny the claims?
Can live sand actually allow you to "skip" the cycling process?
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LxHowler
Active Member
I would say from my experience with live sand (not caribsea) it will help reduce cycle time but I would still recommend a cycle to guarantee a cycle is done. I would say it is more likely to help seed a tank than completely instant cycle a tank.
Others experience will vary and caribsea sand may be better than what I used. If you test as normal then you will be sure.
Others experience will vary and caribsea sand may be better than what I used. If you test as normal then you will be sure.
Billldg
My Gem Tang Is Watching You
No, you still have to add some bacteria, aka Biospera or the like, in order to speed it up. The bacteria in the sand helps a great deal, but doesn't eliminate the cycle. I used Caribsea Special Grade sand.
Nobody has measured what he's asking for in a clear way. I can't find any working examples of proof one way or another
Show me a post of live sand simply being tested for oxidization. Youve got a company claiming its able (do bacteria care if they're packed in a bottle or a bag?) and you've got hobbyists doubting them
and not one person has tested/awaiting links.
why not be the first~~
buy bag, test bag using that second calibration method I posted in your other thread. Then you'll have the first measure of your question Duberii, and Im curious to see the outcome.
I predict it will work; bacteria indeed dont care about bottle vs bag. they care about hydration
I personally think aquatic bacteria will not be killed in water, nor starved.
then you could rinse the sand as we do, in tap, and re test it after evacuating it with RO/completeness
Show me a post of live sand simply being tested for oxidization. Youve got a company claiming its able (do bacteria care if they're packed in a bottle or a bag?) and you've got hobbyists doubting them
and not one person has tested/awaiting links.
why not be the first~~
buy bag, test bag using that second calibration method I posted in your other thread. Then you'll have the first measure of your question Duberii, and Im curious to see the outcome.
I predict it will work; bacteria indeed dont care about bottle vs bag. they care about hydration
I personally think aquatic bacteria will not be killed in water, nor starved.
then you could rinse the sand as we do, in tap, and re test it after evacuating it with RO/completeness
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another thing Id add
from our skip cycling sand rinse thread, hundreds of skipped cycles, you have a way to see what certainly will allow for skipping them
its the rocks, not the sand. In some jobs we remove all the sand and make the rocks instantly handle higher bioload than they had prior, with no ramp up time. Even those don't lose one degree of ammonia control compared to sand + rocks an hour prior (measured by mindstream)
if you ever wanted to create a new tank that was sand only, then we'd need to directly measure whats in the bag and a post rinse would be nice. Until then, everyone is guessing.
we're not guessing though about live rocks, or that sr thread wouldn't be the largest collection of skip cycles on the web. 35 pages not one tank mini cycled or cycled.
from our skip cycling sand rinse thread, hundreds of skipped cycles, you have a way to see what certainly will allow for skipping them
its the rocks, not the sand. In some jobs we remove all the sand and make the rocks instantly handle higher bioload than they had prior, with no ramp up time. Even those don't lose one degree of ammonia control compared to sand + rocks an hour prior (measured by mindstream)
if you ever wanted to create a new tank that was sand only, then we'd need to directly measure whats in the bag and a post rinse would be nice. Until then, everyone is guessing.
we're not guessing though about live rocks, or that sr thread wouldn't be the largest collection of skip cycles on the web. 35 pages not one tank mini cycled or cycled.
MeMyFishandI
Active Member
I used Caribsea live sand when setting up my new tank. I also had added some established live rock to the tank. It still took nearly five weeks to cycle.
only per a non seneye test kit. it didnt kill any animals added, for example
tanks that are truly stalled in cycle can't support any life, even the live rock will die off and go smelly in a loss cascade loop
what specifically never occurs in reefing is setting up live rocks cured from another tank + clean sand and have any delay in cycling. it will always be a non seneye test kit saying it; never a cloudy tank or lost corals and smell for days (requirements of true free ammonia uncontrolled)
seneye if used would have shown no delay in cycling ability when moved to the new tank, source: all seneye tanks. (they dont show variance in cycle controlling even when moving, we collect their examples for patterning)
what ammonia does is so solid that we are able to manage a skip cycle thread for five years running with no tank losses or free ammonia generated. what ammonia does is so predictable that seneye owners know it stays in the thousandths ppm conversion rate until you do something truly drastic, which also causes visual indications in the tank at the same time. there is no tester other than seneye that currently reads ammonia at its true conversion rate: api and salifert and others have zero on the card and there isn't a zero in reefing, they're wrong right off the bat.
tanks that are truly stalled in cycle can't support any life, even the live rock will die off and go smelly in a loss cascade loop
what specifically never occurs in reefing is setting up live rocks cured from another tank + clean sand and have any delay in cycling. it will always be a non seneye test kit saying it; never a cloudy tank or lost corals and smell for days (requirements of true free ammonia uncontrolled)
seneye if used would have shown no delay in cycling ability when moved to the new tank, source: all seneye tanks. (they dont show variance in cycle controlling even when moving, we collect their examples for patterning)
what ammonia does is so solid that we are able to manage a skip cycle thread for five years running with no tank losses or free ammonia generated. what ammonia does is so predictable that seneye owners know it stays in the thousandths ppm conversion rate until you do something truly drastic, which also causes visual indications in the tank at the same time. there is no tester other than seneye that currently reads ammonia at its true conversion rate: api and salifert and others have zero on the card and there isn't a zero in reefing, they're wrong right off the bat.
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Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
No, my opinion it does not eliminate the tank must be given the time to install a proper and reliable carrying capacity!
Sand containing marine life will introduce a lot of this life if kept submerged in water from the place where it is harvested and placed in a tank directly after harvesting without stirring it too much. Even then a new tank will need time.
Sometimes a few months.
One can populate a new tank in a few days without any problems by maintaining a high C/N ratio (setting up a show tank on a fair) eliminating the need for installing an autotrophic carrying capacity. If one has not the patience to install a reliable carrying capacity and wants to show off, this is the way to go. Something I do not recommend.
About "live" rock and "live" sand. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:filtratie:levend_steen
Most live needs oxygen. Most organisms present alive will be uncultivable. How the sand has been stored and how long it was out of the water before being packed? How long it was packed? What happens when opening the package in free air?
We can say that a cell does not become viable if it loses the ability to produce offspring. A broader definition of viability can extend to cells that retain homeostasis and metabolic activity, even if they can no longer divide under specific conditions at specific time. Such cells are sometimes referred to as "viable but uncultivable". ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/dok...chemie:bacteriën#microbiële_levensvatbaarheid
One must be aware this moment only a small part of bacteria and archaea are cultivable in laboratory settings for research or can be used for live cultures for to be used in laboratories ( bacteria in a bottle?)
Not all cells die, the cell can also go into a state of rest, thanks to the stringent response, the response of a bacterium to all kinds of stress factors such as lack of amino acids, fatty acids, iron deficiency or a heat shock. This is accompanied by a sharp increase in the alarm molecule (p) ppGpp (guanosine pentaphosphate or tetraphosphate) which regulates a large part of the genes (translation). This causes the cell to switch from growth and division to rest to survive until the nutritional situation has improved. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:bacteriën
"Live" sand which has been packed will contain a lot of dead cells. What will be the nutritional situation in " live" sand?
A nitrifying biofilm is a very complex community that needs the time to grow and interconnect. When full active +-40% of the biofilm will be bacteria following an anaerobic pathway and it will be able to export between 9% and 20% of the nitrogen processed. This will at least take two to three weeks if not disturbed and if all building materials needed are supplied, regardless of how much "live " sand will be added. "Live" sand may become a supplier of building materials by which it becomes a good substrate. But this can be achieved by using "any" sand taken from nature.
One must be aware the initial installed carrying capacity will be low and must grow with the bio-load added. One can do this by preparing the tank for what is coming by adding a food source and adding sand containing biowaste may help cycling the tank. But why one should spent money on bio-waste? The same can be said about " live" rock.
Another aspect to think about is the fact introduced animals will start grazing the surfaces removing and using the previously installed biofilms. This is good or bad as every animal contains specific bacteria that will play their role in balancing the tank, biofilms are renewed. Essential Bacteria ( good and or bad?) are imported with the animals, healthy corals will bring in their holobiont. In fact, a tank is cycling constantly and the carrying capacity is adjusted constantly till the max capacity is reached.
By using a bio-filter the carrying capacity is more reliable as all the space needed can be provided and grazing be limited, the capacity and removal rates can be managed as desired and follow the bio-load of a growing community at all times.
For this, an MBR is ideal as the biofilm erosion ( renewal of the biofilm) can be managed.
lilgrounchuck
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Don’t know about skipping a cycle with it, but that stuff is DIIIIRTY. If you just dump that bag in there and fill your tank you’re going to have a heck of a time clearing all the fines out. Anytime the bed gets disturbed expect the tank to cloud up again until you get all of it out.
Me personally I always purchase the live sand. I use Caribsea live sand. I get it from amazon for the same price as dead sand.
I setup a 220 gallon tank and I was able to add 4 very large tangs and two clowns from day 1.
With no cycle. I have a seneye and my ammonia was Undetectable. I also used fritz turbo start.
I setup a 220 gallon tank and I was able to add 4 very large tangs and two clowns from day 1.
With no cycle. I have a seneye and my ammonia was Undetectable. I also used fritz turbo start.
Agreed Kat, it doesn’t really matter in the end since live rock bacteria do the skip cycling. It would only matter here if someone was setting up a no rock, sand only tank. Duberii has been shown the sand rinse thread, pure skip cycles for five years, so he’s aware of how to skip a cycle that’s for sure. Being able to click on and read links where two hundred tanks skipped a cycle closed the matter, I just figured here he wanted to know about the sand component only...just to cure the guessing that goes on in forums I too would like to see actual sand tested in a way that clearly shows active or not
in the examples listed here, the sand can’t be claimed as the cycle skipper, bottle bac added masks its ability if any
in the examples listed here, the sand can’t be claimed as the cycle skipper, bottle bac added masks its ability if any
Upsizing my tank- Recycling?
I just got a new tank- a 40 breeder with a ~30 gallon sump. I plan on transferring all my old sand and rock, along with all my livestock into the larger system (and water if you guys think I should). However, I'll also be adding some new rock, new marine pure media, sand and, of course, water to...
www.reef2reef.com
that’s where D was shown how to skip his cycle
If live rock can so can live sand. Given the amount of surface area provided by sand it should even be more efficient. The only problem is that I have never seen any live sand for sale commercially. The stuff can't be sold in closed bags that have been sitting in a warehouse/shop for who knows how long (the numbers and diversity of living bacteria can no longer be there). Would any of us call rock alive if it had been treated that way? The only way to get real live sand is get it directly out of the ocean or from a (healthy) running system with a sandbed.
Why does our hobby validate bottled bac but assume if we bag the bac, they died
aquatic bacteria aren’t killed by wet things, wet sand, any more than they’re killed waiting on a shelf to be bought and skip cycled with a clownfish from a bottle.
*but they’ll starve in the bag
do they starve in the bottle
aquatic bacteria aren’t killed by wet things, wet sand, any more than they’re killed waiting on a shelf to be bought and skip cycled with a clownfish from a bottle.
*but they’ll starve in the bag
do they starve in the bottle
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OP
OP
duberii
Valuable Member
Well, @brandon429 would argue that it is because you didn't wash the sand beforehand. By washing out all the dead stuff and silt, you get rid of a lot of the organics that would cause a cycle. Brandon correct me if I'm wrong.
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