Can phosphates binding medias give a false sense of security

[sixty_reefer]

Since most phosphates binding medias can only bind inorganic forms of phosphates could they be giving us a false sense of security that we removing algae fertilisers from the water column?
it’s believed that phosphorus is a more desirable nutrient for plants and algae if we only removing the inorganic form (po4) and still keeping the organic form (P) would a media give a false idea that we removing the preferred nutrient for algae vs dropping nutrients with bacteria or algae beds that could be a more natural way to assimilate organic and inorganic forms of phosphates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not see evidence that organic forms are particularly significant in algae growth in typical reef tanks unless it is a ULNS system or if there is no significant organic matter export (such as GAC or skimming).

Most green algae are not likely to use organic forms very effectively.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I do not see evidence that organic forms are particularly significant in algae growth in typical reef tanks unless it is a ULNS system or if there is no significant organic matter export (such as GAC or skimming).

Most green algae are not likely to use organic forms very effectively.

From article/studies I’ve been reading recently it mentions that phosphorus is one of the important nutrients for some species of algae that have been studied, this lead me to the question that if we only remove phosphates can the algae still keep growing with phosphorus and if it does what would be a good method to lower phosphorus in a reef aquarium specially during those first years we’re the biological filter is not well stabilised and not many coral or beneficial algaes to aid with the assimilation of this particular nutrient.

would a ULNS have automatically lower phosphorus due to most being bacterial driven?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From article/studies I’ve been reading recently it mentions that phosphorus is one of the important nutrients for some species of algae that have been studied, this lead me to the question that if we only remove phosphates can the algae still keep growing with phosphorus and if it does what would be a good method to lower phosphorus in a reef aquarium specially during those first years we’re the biological filter is not well stabilised and not many coral or beneficial algaes to aid with the assimilation of this particular nutrient.

would a ULNS have automatically lower phosphorus due to most being bacterial driven?

Let’s be clear what we are talking about, and if you provide a link I can see what the papers you refer to are talking about.

There is almost no phosphorus in biological system or the ocean except phosphate. That phosphate can be inorganic (not attached to an organic molecule) which can be any of several forms, but it is mostly inorganic orthophosphate, which is H2PO4- or HPO4 - - or PO4 - - -.

Organic forms attach those orthophosphate forms to an organic molecule. These can be phospholipids, ArO, DNA, RNA, phosphorylation proteins, and many more.

While some organisms (such as many bacteria) can cleave the phosphate off of organic forms, it is the free inorganic orthophosphate that nearly all organisms will use to build new molecules.

Thus, the breakdown of organic molecules supplies the inorganic orthophosphate in some cases, but that is the form organisms need.

It is not useful in a biological system to discuss phosphorus as if it is a different thing than phosphate.

 

[Pntbll687]

From article/studies I’ve been reading recently it mentions that phosphorus is one of the important nutrients for some species of algae that have been studied, this lead me to the question that if we only remove phosphates can the algae still keep growing with phosphorus and if it does what would be a good method to lower phosphorus in a reef aquarium specially during those first years we’re the biological filter is not well stabilised and not many coral or beneficial algaes to aid with the assimilation of this particular nutrient.

would a ULNS have automatically lower phosphorus due to most being bacterial driven?

Can you link to these articles/studies?

Most phosphate media that I have used, lower phosphorus reading as well. I use the UL Checker from Hanna, which is a phosphorus checker, and if I use a "phosphate media", the phosphorus reading comes down as well.

Now take everything below as anecdotal, because that's all it is.

I have a high nutrient system, phosphorus running between 150-200ppb, somewhere between .4-.5ppm phosphates.
I have little to no algae in the system, UNTIL, nitrates get consumed and bottom out for more than 2-3 days. Then the algae grows wild and fast, and takes a few weeks to get under control with manual removal and nitrate dosing. I discovered this when dosing "live rock enhance", the bacteria would consume all the nitrates almost overnight. It took 3 times of this happening for me to realize what was going on. Once I get the nitrates stabilized around 10-15ppm the algae growth slows enough that the herbivores can keep up with trimming back the growth. It seems that the nitrates may "limit" the algae growth because the algae cannot consume as much phosphate. And I say "limit the algae growth" in speculation that the algae is consuming both nitrate and phosphate but can only consume phosphate at a much slower rate when enough nitrates are present. And "enough nitrates" means 10-15ppm, because that is when I can make the observation of slowed growth.

I have ZERO scientific background, and this is anecdotal and just observation using my one tank, and some hobby grade test kits.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Let’s be clear what we are talking about, and if you provide a link I can see what the papers you refer to are talking about.

There is almost no phosphorus in biological system or the ocean except phosphate. That phosphate can be inorganic (not attached to an organic molecule) which can be any of several forms, but it is mostly inorganic orthophosphate, which is H2PO4- or HPO4 - - or PO4 - - -.

Organic forms attach those orthophosphate forms to an organic molecule. These can be phospholipids, ArO, DNA, RNA, phosphorylation proteins, and many more.

While some organisms (such as many bacteria) can cleave the phosphate off of organic forms, it is the free inorganic orthophosphate that nearly all organisms will use to build new molecules.

Thus, the breakdown of organic molecules supplies the inorganic orthophosphate in some cases, but that is the form organisms need.

It is not useful in a biological system to discuss phosphorus as if it is a different thing than phosphate.

I had 0.6 ppm phosphorus in my previous system, it’s not a typo.

this is one of the articles I’ve read

The significance of phosphorus in algae growth and the subsequent ecological response of consumers

Human activities have substantially disrupted phosphorus (P) cycles in the ecosystem, affecting producers and consumers along the food chain. To assess the ecological effects of imbalanced P on pro...

www.tandfonline.com

 

[Pntbll687]

I had 0.6 ppm phosphorus in my previous system, it’s not a typo.

this is one of the articles I’ve read

The significance of phosphorus in algae growth and the subsequent ecological response of consumers

Human activities have substantially disrupted phosphorus (P) cycles in the ecosystem, affecting producers and consumers along the food chain. To assess the ecological effects of imbalanced P on pro...

www.tandfonline.com

What are your nitrates at?

Is the algae exploding in growth, or just slowly growing?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Can you link to these articles/studies?

Most phosphate media that I have used, lower phosphorus reading as well. I use the UL Checker from Hanna, which is a phosphorus checker, and if I use a "phosphate media", the phosphorus reading comes down as well.

Now take everything below as anecdotal, because that's all it is.

I have a high nutrient system, phosphorus running between 150-200ppb, somewhere between .4-.5ppm phosphates.
I have little to no algae in the system, UNTIL, nitrates get consumed and bottom out for more than 2-3 days. Then the algae grows wild and fast, and takes a few weeks to get under control with manual removal and nitrate dosing. I discovered this when dosing "live rock enhance", the bacteria would consume all the nitrates almost overnight. It took 3 times of this happening for me to realize what was going on. Once I get the nitrates stabilized around 10-15ppm the algae growth slows enough that the herbivores can keep up with trimming back the growth. It seems that the nitrates may "limit" the algae growth because the algae cannot consume as much phosphate. And I say "limit the algae growth" in speculation that the algae is consuming both nitrate and phosphate but can only consume phosphate at a much slower rate when enough nitrates are present. And "enough nitrates" means 10-15ppm, because that is when I can make the observation of slowed growth.

I have ZERO scientific background, and this is anecdotal and just observation using my one tank, and some hobby grade test kits.

I also don’t have a scientific background, I’m just curious by nature.
It’s a interesting observation you made on the nitrates relationship with the algae, I have a slight difference anecdotal theory for the same situation.
I have shared the link for one of the articles I was reading today.

 

[Dan_P]

Since most phosphates binding medias can only bind inorganic forms of phosphates could they be giving us a false sense of security that we removing algae fertilisers from the water column?
it’s believed that phosphorus is a more desirable nutrient for plants and algae if we only removing the inorganic form (po4) and still keeping the organic form (P) would a media give a false idea that we removing the preferred nutrient for algae vs dropping nutrients with bacteria or algae beds that could be a more natural way to assimilate organic and inorganic forms of phosphates.

This is easy. The answer is probably “no”.

Try growing algae in tank water where the Hanna PO4 Checker ( either ULR or LR) indicates 0 ppm but with nitrate in the 1-10 ppm range.

The notion of P sources other than inorganic PO4 driving algae growth belongs with Bigfoot sightings. It is a very old pseudo concern. The fact is 0.03 ppm PO4 is enough to grow algae. Reef tanks are very suitable environments to grow algae. The real mystery is why do older systems stop (!) growing macro-algae.

 

[sixty_reefer]

What are your nitrates at?

Is the algae exploding in growth, or just slowly growing?

This is a icp I’ve done to a experimental tank a few years back, unfortunately I had to close it down two years ish as I had to move house.

Continuous phytoplankton|rotifers reactor 24h food supply

Hi guys this is a little project I’ve been working on for a few months and now looking for your views on this subject. It all started with me getting a few non photosynthetic corals (gorgonians) and got me thinking in a way we’re I could give them a constant supply of food. The project started...

www.reef2reef.com

The phosphates were around 17ppm at the time of the icp it was a mixed reef with plenty of macro algaes never had issues with nuisance algae most likely as I had plenty of diversity in algaes in the tank.

it used to get fed 260ml of live phytoplankton daily.

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is easy. The answer is probably “no”.

Try growing algae in tank water where the Hanna PO4 Checker ( either ULR or LR) indicates 0 ppm but with nitrate in the 1-10 ppm range.

The notion of P sources other than inorganic PO4 driving algae growth belongs with Bigfoot sightings. It is a very old pseudo concern. The fact is 0.03 ppm PO4 is enough to grow algae. Reef tanks are very suitable environments to grow algae. The real mystery is why do older systems stop (!) growing macro-algae.

would this much phosphates grow algae?

that’s the rest of the nutrients for the same tank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you link to these articles/studies?

Most phosphate media that I have used, lower phosphorus reading as well. I use the UL Checker from Hanna, which is a phosphorus checker, and if I use a "phosphate media", the phosphorus reading comes down as well.

The "phosphorus" checker from Hanna is an ordinary inorganic phosphate test. it does not detect any organic phosphate forms, and not any other type of phosphorus.

if you want a true total P test, ICP is the way, although that has issues with sample stability en route.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had 0.6 ppm phosphorus in my previous system, it’s not a typo.

this is one of the articles I’ve read

The significance of phosphorus in algae growth and the subsequent ecological response of consumers

Human activities have substantially disrupted phosphorus (P) cycles in the ecosystem, affecting producers and consumers along the food chain. To assess the ecological effects of imbalanced P on pro...

www.tandfonline.com

I'm not seeing anything special in that article. I think the algae growth experiments are just using inorganic phosphate, not any other type of phosphorus, although they do not seem to clearly say this. i cannot wee them adding any other, unusual, chemical without saying what it was.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

would this much phosphates grow algae?

that’s the rest of the nutrients for the same tank

It's plenty of phosphate, but many other things can limit algae growth.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley is there any way to increase organic phosphorus that you aware of without increasing phosphates?

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley is there any way to increase organic phosphorus that you aware of without increasing phosphates?

Maybe run more GFO and less carbon/skimming?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Maybe run more GFO and less carbon/skimming?

Touché

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still see no reason to want to, but dosing an organic phosphate does it at least until it breaks down and releases the inorganic phosphate. There are literally millions of different possibilities since both DNA and RNA of every type and size have organic phosphate. Phospholipids might be the easiest to dose, such as lecithin.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I still see no reason to want to, but dosing an organic phosphate does it at least until it breaks down and releases the inorganic phosphate. There are literally millions of different possibilities since both DNA and RNA of every type and size have organic phosphate. Phospholipids might be the easiest to dose, such as lecithin.

Thank you, would I need to dilute it?

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you, would I need to dilute it?

Wait, are you seriously considering dosing it? Why? I’m so confused.

What’s your goal outcome?