Can twitching/spasms be a symptom of marine velvet?

[Tbg299]

I ordered a Melenarus wrasse from Diver's Den a week ago as well as a goby. The goby died in under 48 hours. It started breathing rapidly then less than 2 hours later, began to spasm uncontrollably and die. Two days later, I noticed that the wrasse had some white dots on his pectoral fin, and also a small white powdery patch on his side. He also started having some kind of spasms every time I stressed him by putting my arm into the QT. I made sure he ate well, then dosed my QT with approximately 2.5 ppm Copper Power. 48 hours later, the spots have cleared up and he is having less spasms. However, they are still occurring less frequently. He is still eating very well. I read that flukes can cause spasms, but he is eating well, and I heard that dosing Prazi Pro in addition to copper power can deplete oxygen in the system. I thought of trying a quick freshwater dip to see it he has any flukes. Does anyone have anymore advice?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I ordered a Melenarus wrasse from Diver's Den a week ago as well as a goby. The goby died in under 48 hours. It started breathing rapidly then less than 2 hours later, began to spasm uncontrollably and die. Two days later, I noticed that the wrasse had some white dots on his pectoral fin, and also a small white powdery patch on his side. He also started having some kind of spasms every time I stressed him by putting my arm into the QT. I made sure he ate well, then dosed my QT with approximately 2.5 ppm Copper Power. 48 hours later, the spots have cleared up and he is having less spasms. However, they are still occurring less frequently. He is still eating very well. I read that flukes can cause spasms, but he is eating well, and I heard that dosing Prazi Pro in addition to copper power can deplete oxygen in the system. I thought of trying a quick freshwater dip to see it he has any flukes. Does anyone have anymore advice?

I usually dose copper power at 2 ppm. 2.5 is o.k., but is on the edge of being too high for a wrasse. Just be sure your test method is accurate!

Prazipro depletes oxygen even in the absence of copper, that just adds to the stress. Always aerate the tank well when dosing it.

If you can catch the wrasse easily, a 5 minute FW dip will help buy you some time. It won't cure flukes, but it will knock them back and give you time to finish the copper treatment and then you can dose with prazi.

I'm not sure what the spasms you are seeing could be - could you possibly capture them on video?

jay

 

[Tbg299]

I usually dose copper power at 2 ppm. 2.5 is o.k., but is on the edge of being too high for a wrasse. Just be sure your test method is accurate!

Prazipro depletes oxygen even in the absence of copper, that just adds to the stress. Always aerate the tank well when dosing it.

If you can catch the wrasse easily, a 5 minute FW dip will help buy you some time. It won't cure flukes, but it will knock them back and give you time to finish the copper treatment and then you can dose with prazi.

I'm not sure what the spasms you are seeing could be - could you possibly capture them on video?

jay

Is a 5 minute dip in heated RO/DI water safe? I don't want to shock my wrasse.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is a 5 minute dip in heated RO/DI water safe? I don't want to shock my wrasse.

No - don't use RODI, it has no pH buffering. Dechlorinated tap water, taken from the tap at the correct temperature is best.

Jay

 

[Tbg299]

No - don't use RODI, it has no pH buffering. Dechlorinated tap water, taken from the tap at the correct temperature is best.

Jay

Thank you. The spasms stopped today, however I'm still going to try the dip just to make sure there are no flukes.

 

[Reef AquaCult]

Just treat w prazi after the copper is done. If it’s flukes it’s not an emergency.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I believe as Jay does that these are flukes. I also disagree that flukes are not an emergency, Although, treatment not as urgent as ich or velvet, it can cause great stress and in gill or prolonged on fish can cause further issues such as laboring for oxygen, refusing to eat which can weaken fish and its' immune system. When a fish first becomes infected with flukes, there are no immediate indications.
Some common symptoms that make reefers believe it may be velvet are:

- Rapid breathing and swimming at the water surface. This is due to their inability to extract sufficient oxygen from the water as the flukes attach to their gills
- Lethargy. The fish may become lethargic, hiding amongst the rocks or in a corner of your tank
- Lack of appetite. Fish may eat very little or nothing at all
- Development of clamped fins or frayed fins
- Loss of color to infected area
- Cloudy eyes
- Fish may be flashing against the rockwork to try and dislodge the flukes
- Exhibiting yawning or a have their mouth hanging open in which the fish is trying to process more oxygen exchange when the gills are affected
- Fish may appear to shake it’s head from side to side

 

[DrZoidburg]

I agree if external flukes depending on which are not an emergency. It would be important to differentiate between internal or external as well. Even internal parasite takes a good amount of time. Just think how do wild fish even live?Twitching can be a lot of things. If your thinking velvet a sign to look out for would be breathing issues.

 

[Tbg299]

I believe as Jay does that these are flukes. I also disagree that flukes are not an emergency, Although, treatment not as urgent as ich or velvet, it can cause great stress and in gill or prolonged on fish can cause further issues such as laboring for oxygen, refusing to eat which can weaken fish and its' immune system. When a fish first becomes infected with flukes, there are no immediate indications.
Some common symptoms that make reefers believe it may be velvet are:

- Rapid breathing and swimming at the water surface. This is due to their inability to extract sufficient oxygen from the water as the flukes attach to their gills
- Lethargy. The fish may become lethargic, hiding amongst the rocks or in a corner of your tank
- Lack of appetite. Fish may eat very little or nothing at all
- Development of clamped fins or frayed fins
- Loss of color to infected area
- Cloudy eyes
- Fish may be flashing against the rockwork to try and dislodge the flukes
- Exhibiting yawning or a have their mouth hanging open in which the fish is trying to process more oxygen exchange when the gills are affected
- Fish may appear to shake it’s head from side to side

I read that it's possible to dose Prazi in very small amounts in food for internal parasites in combination with Seachem Focus instead of dosing the entire tank. Would you recommend this?

 

[Tbg299]

No - don't use RODI, it has no pH buffering. Dechlorinated tap water, taken from the tap at the correct temperature is best.

Jay

So tap water treated with Seachem Prime will be ok?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So tap water treated with Seachem Prime will be ok?

Yes - just draw it at the proper temperature. I also aerate the dips for a few minutes beforehand.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

So tap water treated with Seachem Prime will be ok?

Straight tap water is fine. You can add a pinch of baking soda to stabilize PH but noy necessary. Straight tap the same temp as display tank is sufficient

 

[vetteguy53081]

I read that it's possible to dose Prazi in very small amounts in food for internal parasites in combination with Seachem Focus instead of dosing the entire tank. Would you recommend this?

I dont think this is an internal issue but rather flukes in which some are Not visible to naked eye, hence Jay's recommendation of FW dip

 

[Tbg299]

Update:

It has been nearly a month now, and the wrasse has fully recovered and has been in good health. I plan on moving him to my DT tomorrow. I honestly believe it is what Dr. Zoidburg said about cyanide fishing, and this was what caused the nuerological symptoms.I did a freshwater dip twice , and there were no flukes.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Hold on looking back into other threads. I can say maybe possible. Hard to test for cyanide currently working on a test kit for just that. What strikes me is your other thread. "emergency-sudden ammonia" You dosed prime, water change, then prazi? Maybe has residual prime before addition of prazi. @Jay Hemdal Have you ever experienced increased toxicity from prime, and prazi?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hold on looking back into other threads. I can say maybe possible. Hard to test for cyanide currently working on a test kit for just that. What strikes me is your other thread. "emergency-sudden ammonia" You dosed prime, water change, then prazi? Maybe has residual prime before addition of prazi. @Jay Hemdal Have you ever experienced increased toxicity from prime, and prazi?

I’ve never dosed them at the same time. Was it prazi or Prazipro? The latter tends to scavenge oxygen and is 94% a glycol product, could that react with prime? IDK, sorry.
Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

Prazi pro , and prime. I think its possible it could. Maybe even with the 95% dipropylene glycol it has in it. I didn't know that part or forgot. Experienced this in the past with other meds and a reducer. Thinking maybe it is a possibility, aside from cyanide.

 

[Tbg299]

Hold on looking back into other threads. I can say maybe possible. Hard to test for cyanide currently working on a test kit for just that. What strikes me is your other thread. "emergency-sudden ammonia" You dosed prime, water change, then prazi? Maybe has residual prime before addition of prazi. @Jay Hemdal Have you ever experienced increased toxicity from prime, and prazi?

I never dosed the prazi.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I never dosed the prazi.

Ammonium went down to 0.2 after 25% water change and dose of Prazi Pro.

All started with a just shipped fish. This fish was shipped at 1.015 sg. and testable ammonia after. Oct. 30th Did you mean to say other? Had to tie this together from 3 threads. When I mention cyanide I stress I can't prove this for you. However, either can cause nerve damage type symptoms, and together even worst. When I say nerve damage like this I mean it would not just be twitching. More like twitching, and erratic swimming. Not like flashing at all. What I saw may have been different from what you observed.