Can Velvet be dormant? Can a Goby "resist" it?

[azbigjohn]

Long, depressing, but all too familiar story...

But, made as short as possible, after reading many discussions here, I changed my philosophy to "Quarantine, observe and treat if anything identified." I had no problems, and never saw any spots, etc despite observing all additions for a 3 weeks and all were eating.

All was well until my ATO went out, and I did not noticed for several days, causing my tank to become very high in specific gravity (1.027.) I stupidly dumped RO water into the tank to bring the water up to level in the sump, and went to bed.

Woke up the next morning to a dead tang, and several other fish obviously covered in velvet. Before I could get the QT set up, all of those were dead (Clown I've had for 10 years, PJ Cardinal, Foxface Lo.)

Everyone in the tank died except for an Diamond Goby, who is still cruising the tank, refusing all attempts at retrieval. Eating happily, looking around going, "Where did everyone go" while sifting the sand throughout the tank.

I have heard of ich being "dormant" (hence ich management) but not velvet. How would you treat the goby, knowing if not infected, obviously a carrier of tomonets?

 

[Wolf89]

I'll answer the question "can a goby resist it?"
Absolutely. We went through a similar situation. All my fish died to velvet as well, but one fish, never showed a single sign that anything was wrong. That fish was my little baby convict tang, who could surivive it all. Some fish, ie, very recent wild captures will have very strong immune systems that are hard to achieve in captivity.

However, as you said you "changed your philosophy", what did you change from? If you used to prophylactically treat everything with copper for 30 days, thats why all your fish died so quick. When you treat with copper, it kills bad things, but it also absolutely destroys a fishes immune system, meaning at the first sight of ich or velvet, they drop dead, while wild caught fish with strong immune systems dont skip a beat (at least when dealing with ich, velvets another story (usually))

 

[azbigjohn]

I'll answer the question "can a goby resist it?"
Absolutely. We went through a similar situation. All my fish died to velvet as well, but one fish, never showed a single sign that anything was wrong. That fish was my little baby convict tang, who could surivive it all. Some fish, ie, very recent wild captures will have very strong immune systems that are hard to achieve in captivity.

However, as you said you "changed your philosophy", what did you change from? If you used to prophylactically treat everything with copper for 30 days, thats why all your fish died so quick. When you treat with copper, it kills bad things, but it also absolutely destroys a fishes immune system, meaning at the first sight of ich or velvet, they drop dead, while wild caught fish with strong immune systems dont skip a beat (at least when dealing with ich, velvets another story (usually))

Yes, a couple years ago I upgraded to my 210 gallon tank after a fight with aptasia of biblical proportions. I put everything in the tank into a hospital tank, and treated them all with copper for 30 days, then Prazi, while I acid washed all my rock and r-cured them.

I treated new additions with copper, but had a lot of problems losing fish during the treatment (before Hanna came out with a copper meter.) After a lot of debate on the forum about the stress of prophylactic treatment being worse than the disease, I went back to watchful observation.

I will be going back to prophylactic treatment, I think...

 

[Wolf89]

I will be going back to prophylactic treatment, I think...

Either will work as long as you're consistent.

 

[jasonrusso]

Long, depressing, but all too familiar story...

But, made as short as possible, after reading many discussions here, I changed my philosophy to "Quarantine, observe and treat if anything identified." I had no problems, and never saw any spots, etc despite observing all additions for a 3 weeks and all were eating.

All was well until my ATO went out, and I did not noticed for several days, causing my tank to become very high in specific gravity (1.027.) I stupidly dumped RO water into the tank to bring the water up to level in the sump, and went to bed.

Woke up the next morning to a dead tang, and several other fish obviously covered in velvet. Before I could get the QT set up, all of those were dead (Clown I've had for 10 years, PJ Cardinal, Foxface Lo.)

Everyone in the tank died except for an Diamond Goby, who is still cruising the tank, refusing all attempts at retrieval. Eating happily, looking around going, "Where did everyone go" while sifting the sand throughout the tank.

I have heard of ich being "dormant" (hence ich management) but not velvet. How would you treat the goby, knowing if not infected, obviously a carrier of tomonets?

What did you end up doing here? All my fish are out except 1 firefish goby and a tiny watchman goby that I was positive was dead. Neither show any signs of velvet. The other fish are in QT under CP treatment.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Only way to actually combat velvet is the prophylactic treatment. Gobies are pretty tough and resilient, but eventually the velvet wins. I’d get it out, treat with copper, fallow the tank, and treat all new fish in qt.

 

[JetsIrish]

What did you end up doing here? All my fish are out except 1 firefish goby and a tiny watchman goby that I was positive was dead. Neither show any signs of velvet. The other fish are in QT under CP treatment.

My fire fish goby showed no signs of either brooklynella or velvet (not sure which). It took me a month longer to catch him than any of my other fish…

 

[jasonrusso]

Only way to actually combat velvet is the prophylactic treatment. Gobies are pretty tough and resilient, but eventually the velvet wins. I’d get it out, treat with copper, fallow the tank, and treat all new fish in qt.

Not so easy

 

[Dr4gula.f32]

I have/had velvet in my dt, and 7 fish survived. a blue spotted goby, 6 line wrasse, 3 chromis, purple firefish, and a banana fish. Velvet took 3 clows, clown tang, bi color blenny, tailspot blenny, and a red dragonet. With 7 survivors, and no symptoms for a week or so, I went about bought a clown, the tailspot, and dragonet, thinking I was good. Within 48 hours they were all showing symptoms and then dead. So now I have the 7 survivors in qt with copper. Today I measured 2.10. Tomorrow I should be at full dose 2.5

 

[jasonrusso]

My fire fish goby showed no signs of either brooklynella or velvet (not sure which). It took me a month longer to catch him than any of my other fish…

So you don't know what would have happened if he stayed in there?

 

[JetsIrish]

So you don't know what would have happened if he stayed in there?

No way to know, right?

I was told that the firefish was likely “carrying” the disease despite not showing symptoms. And thus other fish would be likely to be infected should I introduce them to the tank. that seems possible.

maybe nothing would happen because the fish was truly “immune.”

maybe the fish would have succumbed over time.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Not so easy

If removing the fish is difficult, the below may be helpful:

One thing that you could try short of a full tank tear down to get the pseudochromis out is basically boxing the fish into smaller and smaller spaces until you can either catch it or remove the rock it's hiding in. The link below gives some specific ideas (yes, it's oriented toward large tanks, but the concepts work for small tanks too), but basically you drive the fish into a specific portion of the tank and block off the other portions. Once it's in a small enough space that it can't escape, you remove it. Not necessarily easy (and I don't know how plausible it may be for your setup), but it might be easier than tearing down the tank temporarily.

Method for Quickly Catching Difficult Fish Out of a Large Reef Tank with a Net

There are several techniques for catching a fish out of a reef tank. None of them are perfect or work equally for all fish, and many require time and patience. I have a 330 gallon mixed reef that's about 16 months old. In the past year, there have been a couple occasions where I've needed to...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jasonrusso]

If removing the fish is difficult, the below may be helpful:

The goby has made a home with it's shrimp. I don't intend to tear up the network of caves and tunnels the shrimp has made over the years.

I need to research and re evaluate

 

[jasonrusso]

No way to know, right?

I was told that the firefish was likely “carrying” the disease despite not showing symptoms. And thus other fish would be likely to be infected should I introduce them to the tank. that seems possible.

maybe nothing would happen because the fish was truly “immune.”

maybe the fish would have succumbed over time.

The problem with most of the forums is that people always "know a guy" or "read about a situation," but never experienced it themselves.

I don't know for sure and I doubt anyone does. If a small goby lives for months with no signs of infection, has it replicated the virus? Does it keep on living?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

The problem with most of the forums is that people always "know a guy" or "read about a situation," but never experienced it themselves.

I don't know for sure and I doubt anyone does. If a small goby lives for months with no signs of infection, has it replicated the virus? Does it keep on living?

This article below may have some insights for you, particularly in the "Final Thoughts" section at the end. Velvet is a dinoflagellate parasite, Amyloodinium ocellatum, so the Amyloodinium outbreak mentioned in the article is about velvet.

Monday Archives: A ruthless fish killer: Treating and diagnosing Amyloodinium

There are a variety of parasites that effect marine fish, but often aquarists are stricken with one of the two most common. Cryptocaryon irritans (marine ich) a

reefs.com

 

[jasonrusso]

This article below may have some insights for you, particularly in the "Final Thoughts" section at the end. Velvet is a dinoflagellate parasite, Amyloodinium ocellatum, so the Amyloodinium outbreak mentioned in the article is about velvet.

Monday Archives: A ruthless fish killer: Treating and diagnosing Amyloodinium

There are a variety of parasites that effect marine fish, but often aquarists are stricken with one of the two most common. Cryptocaryon irritans (marine ich) a

reefs.com

"Either or could be the case, and it’s important to understand that research has shown that some fish develop an interesting immune response to Amyloodinium. The parasite will embed and begin feeding, but the fish’s body produces something that nullifies the parasite. This means that even if all fish are removed from the display for an extended period of time, there is still a chance of parasitic reoccurrence. Quarantine and prevention, as always, is the best medicine, but even under the best circumstances, it’s not uncommon to come face to face with this common parasite."

I don't really understand what he is getting at here. Is he saying that the fish will fight off the parasite and kill it? So the fish is not a host anymore? But then he says that even if you remove the fish, you can get a re-occurrence. So there is no way to eradicate it?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

"Either or could be the case, and it’s important to understand that research has shown that some fish develop an interesting immune response to Amyloodinium. The parasite will embed and begin feeding, but the fish’s body produces something that nullifies the parasite. This means that even if all fish are removed from the display for an extended period of time, there is still a chance of parasitic reoccurrence. Quarantine and prevention, as always, is the best medicine, but even under the best circumstances, it’s not uncommon to come face to face with this common parasite."

I don't really understand what he is getting at here. Is he saying that the fish will fight off the parasite and kill it? So the fish is not a host anymore? But then he says that even if you remove the fish, you can get a re-occurrence. So there is no way to eradicate it?

The "produces something that nullifies the parasite" part is just saying that, sometimes, even when a fish is infected with the parasite, the fish is not negatively impacted - so the fish is still capable of transmitting the parasite to others, but it won't show any sickness. Dr4gula.f32's comment above is a potential example of this - the seven fish that survived the parasite likely still had it, or the new fish wouldn't have been infected and died.

The comments on the fish being removed for an extended period and the parasite showing up even under the best circumstances are a big part of why people debate if quarantine is worth it. With the lifecycles of parasites like ich and velvet, it is theoretically possible that if the parasite at a very specific life stage ends up in an area of the tank with very specific conditions, the parasite could survive a lengthy fallow period and end up infecting new fish. The odds of this happening are incredibly low, but this part of why so many people recommend 72-76 day fallow periods instead of the 45 days recommended by Jay in the disease forum.

Honestly, most people that end up with velvet despite fallow and treatment periods are either doing something wrong with the treatment (like keeping copper levels too low while treating) or they're reintroducing the parasite through other means (such as by having the parasite come in on macro or corals from an infected tank). This is why Jay pushes biosecurity for the tank so heavily, and why I personally recommend quarantining everything that goes into your tank (including, fish, inverts, corals, macro, new live rock, etc.).

 

[jasonrusso]

Dr4gula.f32's comment above is a potential example of this - the seven fish that survived the parasite likely still had it, or the new fish wouldn't have been infected and died.

He admittedly said he only waited a week.

It is one of those things that makes me question QT as well. It has been over a month since the first signs of the parasite. I removed my clowns and 1 cardinal fish. The other cardinal fish is still in the tank and shows signs of the parasite. My black blenny is still in the tank and looks poor (no spots, but light scales), and the firefish and watchman goby seem totally unaffected. If it was velvet, wouldn't they all be dead by now?

Or maybe it's not velvet.

 

[Dr4gula.f32]

He admittedly said he only waited a week.

It is one of those things that makes me question QT as well. It has been over a month since the first signs of the parasite. I removed my clowns and 1 cardinal fish. The other cardinal fish is still in the tank and shows signs of the parasite. My black blenny is still in the tank and looks poor (no spots, but light scales), and the firefish and watchman goby seem totally unaffected. If it was velvet, wouldn't they all be dead by now?

Or maybe it's not velvet.

Correct. I did only wait a week. I treated with Ruby Rally Pro during that week. It was recommended, and available locally. I dosed, waited, and saw no signs. So in a new fish went, and it died within 48 hours.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

He admittedly said he only waited a week.

It is one of those things that makes me question QT as well. It has been over a month since the first signs of the parasite. I removed my clowns and 1 cardinal fish. The other cardinal fish is still in the tank and shows signs of the parasite. My black blenny is still in the tank and looks poor (no spots, but light scales), and the firefish and watchman goby seem totally unaffected. If it was velvet, wouldn't they all be dead by now?

Or maybe it's not velvet.

It's possible they'd be fine as long as they're in good enough health regardless (Paul B and a number of others run their tanks on the philosophy that at as long as the fish are kept in proper conditions with proper feed, they won't die from illness), but it's also possible that it's not velvet.

Correct. I did only wait a week. I treated with Ruby Rally Pro during that week. It was recommended, and available locally. I dosed, waited, and saw no signs. So in a new fish went, and it died within 48 hours.

Yeah, this is why Jay and others recommend doing a full fallow (45-76 days at 81F) period for the tank and a properly conducted, 30 day therapeutic copper treatment and two week observational quarantine afterwards for the fish. It's possible that the velvet could still linger after that, but the odds are extremely low.