Carbon dosing for 1 1/2 weeks, no sign of nitrate reduction (skimming wet).

[Big E]

My stand on carbon dosing has always been do it without algae filters. You'll get more consistent results ..............you don't need an algae filter if you carbon dose.

You just need a good skimmer......most major brands meet that criteria.

If you follow any commercial brand carbon dosing systems they will tell you to remove algae filters.

 

[Reefing Madness]

If you are following normal dosing guide lines, then it takes months to see an improvement. And no need for any type of filter, just a big ol skimmer to remove all the garbage its going to make.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

My stand on carbon dosing has always been do it without algae filters. You'll get more consistent results ..............you don't need an algae filter if you carbon dose.

You just need a good skimmer......most major brands meet that criteria.

If you follow any commercial brand carbon dosing systems they will tell you to remove algae filters.

Interesting, did not realize that. Is it typically recommended to limit the use of filter floss also?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For me, looks like the no3po4x has only impacted po4 so i guess I'm bottomed out until the denitrator can catch up. Po4 went from .19 to .02 in two weeks while nitrate is stuck.

That's is extraordinarily unlikely to happen in any scenario involving organic carbon dosing. I think there are other things going on causing these changes, possibly including test errors.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting, did not realize that. Is it typically recommended to limit the use of filter floss also?

i did not, and do not think it needed. The rational is presumably to not drop nutrients too low.

IMO, having many differentt expert methods working at once allows each to make up for deficiencies in the others as no method is perfect.

I grew macroalgae, had big, rock-filled refugia, skimmed, dosed vinegar, used GFO, and used GAC all at the same time.

 

[Jon_W79]

There are over 125 different species of denitrifying bacteria. You are probably not meeting all the requirements for good growth of the species that has grown in your tank. I think you will have to experiment if you want to try to get it to work. If you can't get carbon dosing to work, I would recommend a sulphur denitrator with a peristaltic pump. The great thing about a sulphur denitrator is that all, or the vast majority of the denitrifying bacteria you will grow (as a result of the reactor) is a certain species that I think you can definitely meet the requirements of.

 

[Big E]

Interesting, did not realize that. Is it typically recommended to limit the use of filter floss also?

I don't know the specific stand on filter floss with these systems. I would suggest doing some research on what they recommend.

Filter Floss and or socks only real plus is to help clarify water elimating visible particles. The bacterial sludge eventually just die and release the nutrients back into the system. Imo, floss and or socks are only of some value if you use them when doing some basting of rocks or sand stirring the removing in about 15-20 minutes. Then you are actually removing actual waste.

The cons on socks/ floss is that are they are catching bacteria and food particles, planctonic species, particulate detritus, ect. that the corals can use.

To expand on the algae filter comments----- it's always been that way from day one with these systems........zeovit was probably the first commercial bacterial system for marine aquariums.

From the Zeo site--
G Alexander--Refugiums, phosban reactors, phosphate removers, denitrification reactors, algae/turf scrubbers, ozone and UV filters are not needed and should be removed before you start the zeovit setup.

Aged Salt--UV sterilizers, ozonizers, and nutrient exporting macroalgae refugia are not compatible with the ZEOvit method.

 

[Jon_W79]

I don't know the specific stand on filter floss with these systems. I would suggest doing some research on what they recommend.

Filter Floss and or socks only real plus is to help clarify water elimating visible particles. The bacterial sludge eventually just die and release the nutrients back into the system. Imo, floss and or socks are only of some value if you use them when doing some basting of rocks or sand stirring the removing in about 15-20 minutes. Then you are actually removing actual waste.

The cons on socks/ floss is that are they are catching bacteria and food particles, planctonic species, particulate detritus, ect. that the corals can use.

To expand on the algae filter comments----- it's always been that way from day one with these systems........zeovit was probably the first commercial bacterial system for marine aquariums.

From the Zeo site--
G Alexander--Refugiums, phosban reactors, phosphate removers, denitrification reactors, algae/turf scrubbers, ozone and UV filters are not needed and should be removed before you start the zeovit setup.

Aged Salt--UV sterilizers, ozonizers, and nutrient exporting macroalgae refugia are not compatible with the ZEOvit method.

I think that they don't want you to use an algae filter because they want you to be able to control everything as much as possible. For example, algae filters can use a lot of iron, and according to ZEOvit, iron can darken or lighten corals. And also probably because a lot of people run ZEOvit tanks at very low nutrient levels.

 

[Miller535]

At one point in time I could not get my Nitrate down, even when I cut back feeding to next to nothing like you. I tried everything that I knew how to try. Ultimately my tank was 5+ years old, and I did not have critters taking care of my sandbed properly, and that was the source of my nitrates. I ended up swapping out my sand bed, and reusing a few handfuls of the old.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

At one point in time I could not get my Nitrate down, even when I cut back feeding to next to nothing like you. I tried everything that I knew how to try. Ultimately my tank was 5+ years old, and I did not have critters taking care of my sandbed properly, and that was the source of my nitrates. I ended up swapping out my sand bed, and reusing a few handfuls of the old.

I think this is my issue, too! What about adding a bottle of nitrifying bacteria that you can get from your lfs? Or would that not help?

 

[Miller535]

I think this is my issue, too! What about adding a bottle of nitrifying bacteria that you can get from your lfs? Or would that not help?

I don't know, depends how bad the problem is. In my case, I basically had 4" of dirty cat litter. Lol. I don't think any amount of bottle bacteria would have helped. Imo to keep a sand bed from turning into a detritus trap you need to be willing to vacuum it out regularly with water changes (and I mean vacuuming, like with something like a python), or have a really good CUC. A CUC that actually turns the sandbed over regularly.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

I don't know, depends how bad the problem is. In my case, I basically had 4" of dirty cat litter. Lol. I don't think any amount of bottle bacteria would have helped. Imo to keep a sand bed from turning into a detritus trap you need to be willing to vacuum it out regularly with water changes (and I mean vacuuming, like with something like a python), or have a really good CUC. A CUC that actually turns the sandbed over regularly.

I do have a Python ;Smug and I LOVE it! We bought a new house 2 years ago, and I didn't have a faucet that it fit, but now I do! The downstairs bathroom was redone and one thing I made sure of was that I was getting a new faucet and it HAD to be a kitchen faucet so the threads would match my adapter! I have a spotted sleeper goby who keeps the crushed coral cleaned up enough that it's pristine white, but when I do vacuum the substrate, it looks like gray smoke going up the tube. I don't do water changes often, but I'm hoping to change that soon with an AWC. That will, at least, keep things more stable. I guess maybe the bigger question is would I be doing harm if I did try a bottle of the bacteria. Also, I don't really see anything on the bottles about being "reef safe", or "marine" bacteria. Is it all the same? I have been tossing this thought in my head for a while now, but didn't know if it was even possibly a thing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would just point out that nearly all of the N and P in foods ends up in the water as nitrate and phosphate, whether fish eat it or not. To balance things out, we just need to have enough consumption and/or export of these ions to stabilize them at reasonable levels.

 

[Jon_W79]

Interesting, did not realize that. Is it typically recommended to limit the use of filter floss also?

I think at least some of the commercial brand carbon dosing systems want you to remove algae filters at least partly because they are recommending you to have low nitrates and at least some of the reason may be to reduce algae growth.(Red Sea Nopox promotes reduced algae growth as a benefit)So I think that at least partly explains why Red Sea and others tell you to remove algae filters. Since you want nitrate 5-10 ppm you won't be following Red Sea's and other's instructions. Algae can grow good at 5-10 ppm, so I think you could use an algae filter and vinegar like your doing if you can find out what your problem is.

 

[Big E]

I think that they don't want you to use an algae filter because they want you to be able to control everything as much as possible. For example, algae filters can use a lot of iron, and according to ZEOvit, iron can darken or lighten corals. And also probably because a lot of people run ZEOvit tanks at very low nutrient levels.

Yes, being able to control levels is one big reason. Also, if it works as it should most algae is going to struggle or die anyways.

The bacteria are in competition with the algae for the same nutrient pool and a bacterial system will just plain work more efficiently without this competition. I have known more than one person not being able to drop nitrates with vinegar doses, once they pulled the algae filter as suggested the nitrates dropped within a few weeks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, being able to control levels is one big reason. Also, if it works as it should most algae is going to struggle or die anyways.

The bacteria are in competition with the algae for the same nutrient pool and a bacterial system will just plain work more efficiently without this competition. I have known more than one person not being able to drop nitrates with vinegar doses, once they pulled the algae filter as suggested the nitrates dropped within a few weeks.

I'm not sure I buy this argument.

Which "nutrient" pool are you referring to?

 

[Big E]

N03 or before it breaks down to nitrates and Po4...............what don't you buy?

These results are documented in many users over decades. You were around when most people were vodka dosing to try to get rid of algae. This was before you and others suggested vinegar instead.

I've also seen people have better success using just a bacterial system vs trying to use a shotgun approach of export methods.

I am also willing to say export systems will work better without the shotgun approach regardless of which method you use.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t buy this: that algae is taking something out of the water that, when carbon dosing, prevents nitrate from declining.

what could it be that algae is using up that keeps bacteria from lowering nitrate?

you referred to that something as the “nutrient pool”. i’m wondering what you actually mean. it can’t mean nitrate, since be definition it isn’t going down.

Phosphate? i agree that if it is too low for any reason, neither algae nor bacteria will thrive, but that seems to me to be a phosphate problem, not an algae problem.

Some trace element? maybe, but if the algae is growing well and taking up trace elements as it grows, it is presumably also taking up N and P. if it is not growing well, and not taking up N and P, it likely is also not taking up trace elements and somehow outcompeting bacteria with organics to consume.

Thus, I don’t see how algae stops bacteria from working in organic carbon dosing unless the algae is already doing the N and P reduction job.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I'll say there isn't a spec of algae in the tank, water looks crystal clear and my rocks are clean as can be. My rock work is detailed so even with close to 100x flow in the display I know I have pockets of detritus...when I rearranged rocks months ago I could see pockets of it collecting. Sand looks perfectly white and my LPS while doing ok don't have great color.

Visually my tank shows all the signs of low nutrients but lots of test kits all show the same results; if things were stuck at 25 i'd be A ok with it as I do like the current look of my tank but my concern is that it's rising and I really don't know why nor can I seem to control it. A moving parameter that I can't control is a bad thing.

One thing I noticed these last several days is that my skim smells really bad (not like sulfur but almost like frozen food that sat out too long) and the foam is so thick it blows the lid off the cup making it extremely hard to collect skim (even weighting it down blows off whatever is on top). I even tried a 10lb weight to weigh it down and it started to push it off.

My algae turf screen has a very thick green mat collected weekly. It's so interesting that my nitrates don't seem to drop with all the "export" I feel I am doing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My algae turf screen has a very thick green mat collected weekly. It's so interesting that my nitrates don't seem to drop with all the "export" I feel I am doing.

You are matching N in vs N out.