Carbon dosing for 1 1/2 weeks, no sign of nitrate reduction (skimming wet).

[Jon_W79]

I'll say there isn't a spec of algae in the tank, water looks crystal clear and my rocks are clean as can be. My rock work is detailed so even with close to 100x flow in the display I know I have pockets of detritus...when I rearranged rocks months ago I could see pockets of it collecting. Sand looks perfectly white and my LPS while doing ok don't have great color.

Visually my tank shows all the signs of low nutrients but lots of test kits all show the same results; if things were stuck at 25 i'd be A ok with it as I do like the current look of my tank but my concern is that it's rising and I really don't know why nor can I seem to control it. A moving parameter that I can't control is a bad thing.

One thing I noticed these last several days is that my skim smells really bad (not like sulfur but almost like frozen food that sat out too long) and the foam is so thick it blows the lid off the cup making it extremely hard to collect skim (even weighting it down blows off whatever is on top). I even tried a 10lb weight to weigh it down and it started to push it off.

My algae turf screen has a very thick green mat collected weekly. It's so interesting that my nitrates don't seem to drop with all the "export" I feel I am doing.

I think your nutrient export is being regulated by the iron (or possibly something else) that your water changes add. If you wanted to, I believe you could dose iron in a safe way and you could control a maximum possible amount allowed in your aquarium over the long term. The way you could do it is by your water changes. First
thing you do is determine the maximum iron levels you would allow for your aquarium, then you add enough to the new water for the water change to increase to that amount. Of course you could determine the minimum amount of iron in your aquarium after a water change also. If you decided you wanted to do this, the first thing you should probably do is determine how much iron you want to add to your aquarium in the short term.(dose iron with water changes later) Then you dose a small amount of iron each day(over two or three weeks or whatever time period you want) until it adds up to the amount of iron to increase iron levels where you want them. Every day while your increasing iron watch out for cyano, bacteria blooms, coral darkness relative to nutrient and light levels, watch algae growth, test alkalinity, etc.

 

[Jon_W79]

I think your nutrient export is being regulated by the iron (or possibly something else) that your water changes add. If you wanted to, I believe you could dose iron in a safe way and you could control a maximum possible amount allowed in your aquarium over the long term. The way you could do it is by your water changes. First
thing you do is determine the maximum iron levels you would allow for your aquarium, then you add enough to the new water for the water change to increase to that amount. Of course you could determine the minimum amount of iron in your aquarium after a water change also. If you decided you wanted to do this, the first thing you should probably do is determine how much iron you want to add to your aquarium in the short term.(dose iron with water changes later) Then you dose a small amount of iron each day(over two or three weeks or whatever time period you want) until it adds up to the amount of iron to increase iron levels where you want them. Every day while your increasing iron watch out for cyano, bacteria blooms, coral darkness relative to nutrient and light levels, watch algae growth, test alkalinity, etc.

If you set your maximum possible iron levels at Red Sea's recommendation you very likely won't have low iron levels (if that's what the problem is) in the future.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you set your maximum possible iron levels at Red Sea's recommendation you very likely won't have low iron levels (if that's what the problem is) in the future.

Their iron recommendation (0.15 ppm) is crazy high (IMO). It may be fine, but it is far, far higher than NSW surface levels of iron, which can be more like 0.000006 ppm.

I wonder if part of the reason that they recommend such high levels is so people can detect it with their kit. Not because they experimentally determined that ten fold less iron was less effective.

 

[Big E]

I don’t buy this: that algae is taking something out of the water that, when carbon dosing, prevents nitrate from declining.

what could it be that algae is using up that keeps bacteria from lowering nitrate?

you referred to that something as the “nutrient pool”. i’m wondering what you actually mean. it can’t mean nitrate, since be definition it isn’t going down.

Phosphate? i agree that if it is too low for any reason, neither algae nor bacteria will thrive, but that seems to me to be a phosphate problem, not an algae problem.

Some trace element? maybe, but if the algae is growing well and taking up trace elements as it grows, it is presumably also taking up N and P. if it is not growing well, and not taking up N and P, it likely is also not taking up trace elements and somehow outcompeting bacteria with organics to consume.

Thus, I don’t see how algae stops bacteria from working in organic carbon dosing unless the algae is already doing the N and P reduction job.

I don’t buy this: that algae is taking something out of the water that, when carbon dosing, prevents nitrate from declining.

what could it be that algae is using up that keeps bacteria from lowering nitrate?

I never said that

There has been some recent evidence algae have symbiotic bacteria ..............similar to bacteria that live on a coral and feed the zoo. I'm not advocating this is fact but it would explain a more competitive situation to bacteria that is part of a carbon dosing system.

you referred to that something as the “nutrient pool”. i’m wondering what you actually mean. it can’t mean nitrate, since be definition it isn’t going down.

The algae filter and current export system has created a environment(ratio) that it isn't working efficiently enough to keep up with reducing the nitrate production.

It's going to take a loooong time to change this vs just pulling the algae filter when you start to carbon dose. When you carbon dose it's going to take up some of the ammonium/urea and the nitrates As the bacteria starts to do it's thing the algae filter will start to slow down/die as well as and other algae in the system is dying creating larger pool (short term) than there was before, so when reading on a test kit the nitrates seem to not be going down.

It’s more likely that once carbon dosing starts there will be an increase of Po4 before any reduction of no3 is seen on a test kit. This is can be a first sign things are changing.

If the algae filter is pulled it leaves the carbon dosing system to show results faster. The algae filter isn't "working" so just pull it and try another export system..in this case carbon dosing.

Phosphate? i agree that if it is too low for any reason, neither algae nor bacteria will thrive, but that seems to me to be a phosphate problem, not an algae problem.

Yes, the algae filter and/or current export system created this imbalance.
If the Po4 is too low it may be easier to dose phosphate instead of carbon dosing at all.

Some trace element? maybe, but if the algae is growing well and taking up trace elements as it grows, it is presumably also taking up N and P. if it is not growing well, and not taking up N and P, it likely is also not taking up trace elements and somehow out competing bacteria with organics to consume.

I don't know about trace elements and if bacteria relies on some of them, but the algae is taking up trace elements that the corals could use.

Thus, I don’t see how algae stops bacteria from working in organic carbon dosing unless the algae is already doing the N and P reduction job.

Again, I never said that the algae stops the bacteria from working.

I said export systems work better independently than mish-mashing different export systems.

They all can work but need to be set up and maintained correctly.

If the algae was doing the job there would be no desire/need to carbon dose.

 

[Jon_W79]

Their iron recommendation (0.15 ppm) is crazy high (IMO). It may be fine, but it is far, far higher than NSW surface levels of iron, which can be more like 0.000006 ppm.

I wonder if part of the reason that they recommend such high levels is so people can detect it with their kit. Not because they experimentally determined that ten fold less iron was less effective.

I think their iron recommendation may be partly because of their low nitrate recommendation. So I guess he shouldn't do it for that reason alone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think their iron recommendation may be partly because of their low nitrate recommendation. So I guess he shouldn't do it for that reason alone.

why would those recommendations be related?

 

[Jon_W79]

why would those recommendations be related?

I would speculate that part of the reason they recommend iron that high is because, at the nitrate level they recommend, it would be common for corals to be pale, and that having iron a lot higher than natural levels could significantly darken coral colors. On the ZEOvit iron bottle, it says it deepens all colors. With iron at 0.15 ppm, and nitrate at 5-10 ppm, I would be concerned that corals might be a lot darker than they would typically be at 5-10 ppm nitrate. Someone may not get what they expect if that happened, and it may not look as good as at typical iron levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am skeptical that iron darkens colors except in algae where it increases chlorophyll and they can get darker green.

 

[Big E]

For anyone interested---

FAQ - Red Sea

Frequesntly Asked Questions - A massive reservoir of useful information for Red Sea products.

www.redseafish.com

NOPox FAQ--

Can/should I use a refigium/DSB/BP reactor with N0Pox?

No! Such methods will interfere with the natural proliferation of de-nitrifying bacteria and PAB communities.

 

[Big E]

2Wheelsonly--

Your skimmer seems to be erratic, are you sure it's running correctly?
You may want to pull the pump and clean it. A lot of times a bacterial film will grow on the magnet and in the casing creating inconsistent or slower flow due to the magnet slipping.

If it's not working properly then you aren't going to get that nutrient laden bacteria out of your system that the carbon dosing is creating.

It also may be undersized.........you could also make sure the waste from your overflow is getting to the skimmer in the best way possible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For anyone interested---

FAQ - Red Sea

Frequesntly Asked Questions - A massive reservoir of useful information for Red Sea products.

www.redseafish.com

NOPox FAQ--

Can/should I use a refigium/DSB/BP reactor with N0Pox?

No! Such methods will interfere with the natural proliferation of de-nitrifying bacteria and PAB communities.

Right. Do nothing that reduces the amount of NOPOX you buy!!!!!

lol

This is not a meaningful issue, IMO. I'm very skeptical about it being true, and am even more skeptical about it not mattering if it was.

Something will consume the organics added, and I am not convinced we know or care what it is. Corals? Sponges? Bacteria?

 

[Jon_W79]

I'll say there isn't a spec of algae in the tank, water looks crystal clear and my rocks are clean as can be. My rock work is detailed so even with close to 100x flow in the display I know I have pockets of detritus...when I rearranged rocks months ago I could see pockets of it collecting. Sand looks perfectly white and my LPS while doing ok don't have great color.

Visually my tank shows all the signs of low nutrients but lots of test kits all show the same results; if things were stuck at 25 i'd be A ok with it as I do like the current look of my tank but my concern is that it's rising and I really don't know why nor can I seem to control it. A moving parameter that I can't control is a bad thing.

One thing I noticed these last several days is that my skim smells really bad (not like sulfur but almost like frozen food that sat out too long) and the foam is so thick it blows the lid off the cup making it extremely hard to collect skim (even weighting it down blows off whatever is on top). I even tried a 10lb weight to weigh it down and it started to push it off.

My algae turf screen has a very thick green mat collected weekly. It's so interesting that my nitrates don't seem to drop with all the "export" I feel I am doing.

In another thread of yours you said you changed about a thousand gallons over three weeks and it didn't really move your nitrate level. I think I know what might have happened. I believe the corals, (symbiotic relationship with bacteria) algae, and denitrifying bacteria are using vitamin B12 added from the fish food. When you do water changes it could be harming the coral, algae, and denitrifying bacteria, causing them to use less nitrate because it is removing vitamin B12. I believe corals need vitamin B12 based on a study I saw. Google search (it's a pdf) corals B12. It has been proven that algae(at least a lot of them) use vitamin B12. And here is a link that shows at least a lot of denitrifying bacteria use (cobalamin) vitamin B12.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448990/#!po=22.0930 I think you should dose vitamin B12, and see if it helps. If you do, you may want to start with a small amount.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In another thread of yours you said you changed about a thousand gallons over three weeks and it didn't really move your nitrate level. I think I know what might have happened. I believe the corals, (symbiotic relationship with bacteria) algae, and denitrifying bacteria are using vitamin B12 added from the fish food. When you do water changes it could be harming the coral, algae, and denitrifying bacteria, causing them to use less nitrate because it is removing vitamin B12. I believe corals need vitamin B12 based on a study I saw. Google search (it's a pdf) corals vitamin B12. It has been proven that algae(at least a lot of them) use vitamin B12. And here is a link that shows at least a lot of denitrifying bacteria use vitamin B12.https://s.amsu.ng/IPTQTWTZYctN
I think you should dose vitamin B12, and see if it helps. If you do, you may want to start with a small amount.

I'm also skeptical of that hypothesis, but it is an easy enough thing to experiment with.

 

[Jon_W79]

In another thread of yours you said you changed about a thousand gallons over three weeks and it didn't really move your nitrate level. I think I know what might have happened. I believe the corals, (symbiotic relationship with bacteria) algae, and denitrifying bacteria are using vitamin B12 added from the fish food. When you do water changes it could be harming the coral, algae, and denitrifying bacteria, causing them to use less nitrate because it is removing vitamin B12. I believe corals need vitamin B12 based on a study I saw. Google search (it's a pdf) corals B12. It has been proven that algae(at least a lot of them) use vitamin B12. And here is a link that shows at least a lot of denitrifying bacteria use (cobalamin) vitamin B12.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448990/#!po=22.0930 I think you should dose vitamin B12, and see if it helps. If you do, you may want to start with a small amount.

Vitamin B12 comes indirectly from the fish food.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no doubt many bacteria use vitamin B12. But some bacteria and other organisms make it themselves.

It would be interesting to see if dosed vitamin B12 substantially ramped up denitrification in an aquarium after dosing. I don't think such evidence exists.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Your nitrate is not going down probably because you don’t have enough po4 available to drop it lower. The po4 is probably balancing from 0 to just detectable especially with the algae filter running. How long did it take you to get to this high of a dose? I dose 200 ml a day in my 100 gallon tank and it took a long time to get that high. Your probably having bacteria blooms that are causing the skimmer to act up and your only seeing signs of it on the glass. At least it’s a sign that things are almost where you want them though. Once the skimmer does that is when nitrates start to drop but you have to have a decent amount of po4 available to drop nitrates that are that high. If your corals are pale with nitrates that high po4 has to be dropping lower than you think and it could be happening multiple times a day.

I am kinda going through a similar situation but my nutrients are high, both po4 and nitrate from adding a friends fish to the tank while I knew it couldn’t handle them. I am dosing so much and neither is going down anymore. I have been dosing carbon sources for maybe 5 years consistently and am kinda stumped at this point as to why it just stopped working. I am thinking adding vodka back to the mix will help things get back in line.

 

[Jon_W79]

I have no doubt many bacteria use vitamin B12. But some bacteria and other organisms make it themselves.

It would be interesting to see if dosed vitamin B12 substantially ramped up denitrification in an aquarium after dosing. I don't think such evidence exists.

If someone was going to dose vitamin B12, what would you recommend? I found 50g of pure methylcobalamin powder for $674.96. I bet they are stingy with the amount of vitamin B12 in anything that is sold for aquarium use has(except fish food).

 

[2Wheelsonly]

2Wheelsonly--

Your skimmer seems to be erratic, are you sure it's running correctly?
You may want to pull the pump and clean it. A lot of times a bacterial film will grow on the magnet and in the casing creating inconsistent or slower flow due to the magnet slipping.

If it's not working properly then you aren't going to get that nutrient laden bacteria out of your system that the carbon dosing is creating.

It also may be undersized.........you could also make sure the waste from your overflow is getting to the skimmer in the best way possible.

Skimmer is a life reef 36 inch rated for 600G systems, I think i'll take my pump out tomorrow and clean it up.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Your nitrate is not going down probably because you don’t have enough po4 available to drop it lower. The po4 is probably balancing from 0 to just detectable especially with the algae filter running. How long did it take you to get to this high of a dose? I dose 200 ml a day in my 100 gallon tank and it took a long time to get that high. Your probably having bacteria blooms that are causing the skimmer to act up and your only seeing signs of it on the glass. At least it’s a sign that things are almost where you want them though. Once the skimmer does that is when nitrates start to drop but you have to have a decent amount of po4 available to drop nitrates that are that high. If your corals are pale with nitrates that high po4 has to be dropping lower than you think and it could be happening multiple times a day.

I am kinda going through a similar situation but my nutrients are high, both po4 and nitrate from adding a friends fish to the tank while I knew it couldn’t handle them. I am dosing so much and neither is going down anymore. I have been dosing carbon sources for maybe 5 years consistently and am kinda stumped at this point as to why it just stopped working. I am thinking adding vodka back to the mix will help things get back in line.

Got there in 2 weeks, no blooms at all. Crystal clear.

 

[stephj03]

Honestly, I would flip the script and take carbon offline and stick with the scrubber. You tried a couple of methods and hit paydirt with that one.

And now the one you didn't hit paydirt with is becoming a science project to figure out.

On a side note you've verified good source water and water change water? Zero nitrates on both of those?