Carbon Dosing (Vinegar only) and skimmate

[Belgian Anthias]

Carbon dosing has been successfully used in aquaculture for some decades now, biofloc technology has been subject of a lot of research and the process is well understood. Such a monoculture is harvested if growth stops and a new culture is started up, something we do not intend keeping a reef aquarium.

Carbon dosing in a reef aquarium has a lot of caveats that are not well understood or ignored.

r strategists may grow very fast once out of lag phase and come in log phase, as growth is logarithmic. They will grow at least 8x faster as competitors. Determent for the growth rate is the nitrogen source used. Fast growth needs ammonia-nitrogen. Bacteria prefer ammonia to grow, not nitrate-nitrogen. A lot of protein is produced but logarithmic growth is always followed by logarithmic decay.

Normally organic carbon for growth is retrieved from organic matter which is remineralized, producing new building materials for new growth and the carbon is released as CO2 to close the carbon cycle and to be used by autotrophs to produce organic matter with the by remineralization provided building materials. Nature limits organic carbon availability for a reason!
By adding free supplemental organic carbon the bacteria do not need to use decaying organic matter to retrieve their carbon demands and for fast growth they use up what is available in the water column. Slower growing species as autotrophs will not be able to compete. The previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity may be lost and replaced by growth.
+- 40 x more bio-mass must be produced to reduce the same amount of ammonium. Carbon dosing also does deplete alkalinity!!!!

What if for some reason growth stops suddenly due to insufficient supply of one or more essential nutrients or dosing is stopped abruptly?
A skimmer removes nutrients constantly but very selective, only +- 30% of the so-called "nasty things" will be removed, the rest stays and must be remineralized. A skimmer is not very effective in removing DOC and TOC!
If skimmate increases one may get an idea of what is leftover in the tank.
Corrals make use of their own private carbon cycle in the coral holobiont, this way managing their own nutrient supply.

I would not like to be that coral which has to compete with those r-strategists fed with an overdose of free organic carbon!
It has been shown a high C:N ratio will mess up the entire system and the presence of unused carbohydrates may kill corals. Phosphorus starvation has been shown to be the main cause of coral bleaching, dosing organic carbon based only on the nitrate level may kill corals.
Fast growing bacteria use ammonium -nitrogen, not nitrate, and need phosphorus and other essentials. Most users of carbon dosing use it based on the nitrate level which logically can not be used as a reliable reference for dosing as may be the daily nitrogen overproduction and phosphorus availability. The N/P ratio for growth needed in weight is 10/1 if nitrate and phosphate are used as a reference.

Carbon dosing may kill corals and will for sure mess up the coral holobiont!

Vinegar is also used to improve kalkwasser addition. In that case, carbon is dosed based on the evaporation rate of the tank, often without taking into account anything else. Do I have to explain more?

We are 2020, until now nothing has changed.

 

[sde1500]

Carbon dosing has been successfully used in aquaculture for some decades now, biofloc technology has been subject of a lot of research and the process is well understood. Such a monoculture is harvested if growth stops and a new culture is started up, something we do not intend keeping a reef aquarium.

Carbon dosing in a reef aquarium has a lot of caveats that are not well understood or ignored. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka

r strategists may grow very fast once out of lag phase and come in log phase, as growth is logarithmic. They will grow at least 8x faster as competitors. Determent for the growth rate is the nitrogen source used. Fast growth needs ammonia-nitrogen. Bacteria prefer ammonia to grow, not nitrate-nitrogen. A lot of protein is produced but logarithmic growth is always followed by logarithmic decay. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:bacteriën

Normally organic carbon for growth is retrieved from organic matter which is remineralized, producing new building materials for new growth and the carbon is released as CO2 to close the carbon cycle and to be used by autotrophs to produce organic matter with the by remineralization provided building materials. Nature limits organic carbon availability for a reason!
By adding free supplemental organic carbon the bacteria do not need to use decaying organic matter to retrieve their carbon demands and for fast growth they use up what is available in the water column. Slower growing species as autotrophs will not be able to compete. The previously installed autotrophic carrying capacity may be lost and replaced by growth.
+- 40 x more bio-mass must be produced to reduce the same amount of ammonium. Carbon dosing also does deplete alkalinity!!!! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:ammonium_reductie
What if for some reason growth stops suddenly due to insufficient supply of one or more essential nutrients or dosing is stopped abruptly?
A skimmer removes nutrients constantly but very selective, only +- 30% of the so-called "nasty things" will be removed, the rest stays and must be remineralized. A skimmer is not very effective in removing DOC and TOC! ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:het_water:filtratie:eiwitafschuimer If skimmate increases one may get an idea of what is leftover in the tank.
Corrals make use of their own private carbon cycle in the coral holobiont, this way managing their own nutrient supply. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:theorie:koraal_holoboint
I would not like to be that coral which has to compete with those r-strategists fed with an overdose of free organic carbon!
It has been shown a high C:N ratio will mess up the entire system and the presence of unused carbohydrates may kill corals. Phosphorus starvation has been shown to be the main cause of coral bleaching, dosing organic carbon based only on the nitrate level may kill corals.
Fast growing bacteria use ammonium -nitrogen, not nitrate, and need phosphorus and other essentials. Most users of carbon dosing use it based on the nitrate level which logically can not be used as a reliable reference for dosing as may be the daily nitrogen overproduction and phosphorus availability. The N/P ratio for growth needed in weight is 10/1 if nitrate and phosphate are used as a reference.

Carbon dosing may kill corals and will for sure mess up the coral holobiont!



We are 2020, till now nothing has changed.

Did you really resurrect a 6 year old thread just to bash carbon dosing which is long been used by many to good results?

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Or just to debate if it depletes alk again.
I have been using vinegar for a long time now. I don’t worry about any of the things your referencing.
carbon sources can be so helpful in many tanks and I really believe it’s not used more because of posts like this and posts from people who misused it.

 

[Quietman]

Dang and here I thought my carbon dosing was working.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I use a lot of vinegar and never noticed any alk decrease, so even if it does a little what’s the big deal?
I haven’t seen anything but increased life of sponges and other inverts since using vinegar.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Did you really resurrect a 6 year old thread just to bash carbon dosing which is long been used by many to good results?

And not much has changed!

The past 2 decades a lot of elements are added to the side effects of carbon dosing. As long they are not recognized to be safe, unsafe ellements eliminated or proven to be not correct one should not add carbohydrate based supplements to a reef aquarium.
In 2008, more than a decade ago, Ken S. Feldman an Kelly M. Maers warned about increased organic carbon availability. This is more as a decade ago! In an article published in the Advanced Aquarist they wrote:“circumstantial evidence encouraged Rohwer et al. to speculate that the introduction of carbohydrates (= a fuel source) will generate an imbalance in the bacterial component of the holobiont, and that this departure from equilibrium leads to coral mortality. The mechanism by which this induced bacterial proliferation causes coral death remains to be elucidated, and this pivotal issue must be addressed before this intriguing hypothesis can gain further traction. Nevertheless, the empirical evidence can be construed to support a robust relationship between elevated DOC levels, correspondingly increased bacterial populations, and coral mortality.” They also wrote:“ Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin “Help! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?” Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? (FeldmanEnMaers2008>Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: An Initial Survey, Part I”. Page. . https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3.)

There is nothing wrong with providing information about carbon dosing which gives users an idea of what may happen to do so., what to expect when not doing it correctly. Based on available and provided information dosing carbon only based on the nitrate level is considered to be unsafe in a reef aquarium . Many have used it or are using it. They should be informed propperly. I only provide information, I certainly do not bash on carbon dosing as it may be very useful if used correctly and in an emergency. Carbohydrates are not dangerous, adding them without knowing is! In most cases, it is used to lower the level of safely stored nitrogen, nitrate, without questioning themselves why the nitrate level increases. If nitrate is considered a disease, which I do not, the cure will be a lot worse as the disease.

 

[Dan_P]

So after discussing the Bacteria and carbon dosing methods I've decided to halt Prodibio dosings and switch to just carbon dosing via Vinegar. Using the dosing chart for vinegar users (I am on day two but upped the dose to 6.4mL instead of the recommended 3.4mL considering I am already carbon dosing) I've noticed something a bit immediate. My skimmate production has been much higher, and it's really good quality skimmate to boot.

My question is just how immediate can carbon dosing cause the bacteria to multiply? My thought is that it seems pretty quick considering my skimmate production, and the fact that vinegar is dosed daily.

Am I right in thinking this way?

What do you mean by “skimmate production has been much higher” and “good quality skimmate”?

 

[sde1500]

Based on available and provided information dosing carbon only based on the nitrate level is considered to be unsafe in a reef aquarium .

No, based on your carefully selected info that you picked as it backs up your argument. I’d say the other available information is the hundreds and thousands of tanks successfully dosing carbon.

Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin “Help! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?” Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? (FeldmanEnMaers2008>

So after all this, you’re going to base the argument, and source it, on “could it be”? Pretty weak case.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Not again......

 

[Belgian Anthias]

No, based on your carefully selected info that you picked as it backs up your argument. I’d say the other available information is the hundreds and thousands of tanks successfully dosing carbon.


So after all this, you’re going to base the argument, and source it, on “could it be”? Pretty weak case.

Just providing important info!!
Maybe users may recognize some of the side effects of which they are not aware existing? Promoting is not the same as informing!
To stay in your line of thinking, many thousands of people used Thalidomide in more than 40 countries and were very satisfied with the results and therefore where promoting it. When problems with newborns showed something was wrong nobody saw the connection and users kept on using and promoting it. Finally, It changed the pharmaceutical industry and the way medication must be tested before coming on the market en being promoted. It could have been avoided if all side effects had been investigated properly and or had been recognized as a side effect.
On does not add something to a life support system if one does not know if it may or may not harm the inhabitants.
In the case of supplementing carbohydrates, many side effects are recognized and known. We know it may harm some of the residents in a reef aquarium if not used correctly.

Informing how to avoid known problems and side effects would be a lot better as ignoring them.

Dosing carbon only based on the nitrate level may harm even kill corals.! As has been shown!!!!

How to become a responsible reefer?

 

[Reefing Madness]

What do you mean by “skimmate production has been much higher” and “good quality skimmate”?

Your skimmer goes into double time removing the organics that are left behind by the dosing, thats why its recommended that you have a good skimmer if you plan on dosing. It really does produce alot of skimmate.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Even the best skimmer is very limited in removing the protein produced by carbon dosing. A skimmer may remove max +- 30%. The rest stays behind.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I never noticed any drawback to dosing vinegar, except at super high doses where u could see a visible haze of bacteria in the water column and more growth of filter feeders, which is IMO good, except it also included vermitid worms.

 

[sde1500]

Dosing carbon only based on the nitrate level may harm even kill corals.! As has been shown!!!!

Where has it been shown? Here:?

They also wrote:“ Reef bulletin boards all too frequently contain threads that begin “Help! My tank is crashing; my corals are dying, but all of my measurable water parameters are within expected ranges. What's wrong?” Could it be possible that elevated levels of DOC, for whatever the reason, are contributing to, or even causing, the coral loss? (FeldmanEnMaers2008>

Because this is nothing more than conjecture.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I never noticed any drawback to dosing vinegar, except at super high doses where u could see a visible haze of bacteria in the water column and more growth of filter feeders, which is IMO good, except it also included vermitid worms.

And you did never had thoughts about the health of the other habitants which are derived from their essentials nutrients due to the induced fast heterotrophic growth by adding only vinegar? Or any other organic carbon based supplement which promotes stealing the nutrients from other residents? How your tank would have looked if you never would have added vinegar? How do you know there where no draw backs? How and with what do you compare?

Adding carbohydrates, will it improve the health of corals, considering it is used to lower the nitrate level? And why?

How much may be considered to be a super high dose? On what parameter that dose was based? Or did the visible haze brought up the thought maybe too much was dosed?
No problem, the haze will be gone soon, we do not have to bother about how the others will cope reordening everything!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And you did never had thoughts about the health of the other habitants which are derived from their essentials nutrients due to the induced fast heterotrophic growth by adding only vinegar? Or any other organic carbon based supplement which promotes stealing the nutrients from other residents? How your tank would have looked if you never would have added vinegar? How do you know there where no draw backs? How and with what do you compare?

Adding carbohydrates, will it improve the health of corals, considering it is used to lower the nitrate level? And why?

How much may be considered to be a super high dose? On what parameter that dose was based? Or did the visible haze brought up the thought maybe too much was dosed?
No problem, the haze will be gone soon, we do not have to bother about how the others will cope reordening everything!

I was very happy with how organisms were thriving.
I have detailed in many, many threads my experiences in dosing vinegar, and did not think another repetition was required. But since you asked, here is a copy and paste from a 10 year old thread;

OK, I've been experimenting with upping and upping the vinegar dose for my tank. Hoping to stop any green algae on the glass and kill off some macroalgae and maybe bryopsis (which has not worked).

I've been adding more and more vinegar and less and less vodka.

Well, at the recent limit of 410 mL of lime-saturated vinegar, the tank really was noticeably poorer.

Most particularly, the RBTAs browned up (still orange, but darker and the white parts are now brown) and they expanded less and less, and the H. crispa also expanded less. Some soft corals were also shrunken.

Cyano also started to grow faster again.

Also, the green algae on the glass seemed to grow faster! Bryopsis is also out of control, although that may not be related.

So I’ve decided to cut way back and try 150 ml of lime-saturated vinegar with no vodka for a bit and see if things go back to normal.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The latest decade a lot of research has been done and confirmed the worry's made about organic carbon availability, as published by Ken S. Feldman an Kelly M. Maers in 2008.

Who would add something to a live support tank without knowing it improves or harms the health of the residents for whom one is responsible?
It looks fine, it must be ok! Compared to what?

Assuming enough carbohydrates are dosed in a reef aquarium for directly lowering the nitrate level by heterotrophic bacterial metabolism, I would not like to be one of the corals trying to manage their coral-holobiont.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For reference, that 410 mL dose was using 5% acetic acid vinegar, and was to a 120 gallon display tank with a total system volume of 250-300 gallons.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The latest decade a lot of research has been done and confirmed the worry's made about organic carbon availability, as published by Ken S. Feldman an Kelly M. Maers in 2008. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:filtratie:vodka
Who would add something to a live support tank without knowing it improves or harms the health of the residents for whom one is responsible?
It looks fine, it must be ok! Compared to what?

Assuming enough carbohydrates are dosed in a reef aquarium for directly lowering the nitrate level by heterotrophic bacterial metabolism, I would not like to be one of the corals trying to manage their coral-holobiont.

I do not recommend dosing carbohydrates.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I was very happy with how organisms were thriving.
I have detailed in many, many threads my experiences in dosing vinegar, and did not think another repetition was required. But since you asked, here is a copy and paste from a 10 year old thread;

OK, I've been experimenting with upping and upping the vinegar dose for my tank. Hoping to stop any green algae on the glass and kill off some macroalgae and maybe bryopsis (which has not worked).

I've been adding more and more vinegar and less and less vodka.

Well, at the recent limit of 410 mL of lime-saturated vinegar, the tank really was noticeably poorer.

Most particularly, the RBTAs browned up (still orange, but darker and the white parts are now brown) and they expanded less and less, and the H. crispa also expanded less. Some soft corals were also shrunken.

Cyano also started to grow faster again.

Also, the green algae on the glass seemed to grow faster! Bryopsis is also out of control, although that may not be related.

So I’ve decided to cut way back and try 150 ml of lime-saturated vinegar with no vodka for a bit and see if things go back to normal.

Adding vinegar or any other carbohydrate, has it improved the health of your corals, considering it was used to lower the nitrate and phosphate level to keep your corals happy? And why? Based on my information about increased organic carbon availability, I do not think so.
Maby it was also used to control algae growth without having thought about what could be the effect on corral health? Or used to improve kalkwasser addition by which vinegar is added to the system based on the evaporation rate without taking into account any other parameter or side effect of organic carbon addition.

On first reading it certainly did mess up your system , it did not add much stability.

Maintaining a high C:N ratio is a very effective method for removing ammonium very fast, to prevent nitrification and algae growth, but not advisable for to support the bio-load in a reef aquarium in which corals try to manage their own private carbon cycle.