Charles Delbeek (N:P, Alk… )

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Many thanks Randy!
I was a bit surprised that Charles ended up also using Ratio for the analysis although the conclusion was pretty much linked to phosphate levels.

I always stress that ratios (instead of range) are a problem itself once the numbers are close to the margin of error of the test itself. There, you can have things shooting to everywhere :)

The alk part is not clear the conclusion yet… safer to keep higher alk (?)
 

sixty_reefer

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the ratios could just be coincidence, from looking at those charts it seems that they only started to encounter coral problems as stability got lost.
 

CHSUB

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Imo, he is not suggesting targeting ratios. Being a follower of his advice, I interpreted that different organisms use N and P at different ratios. When N is higher, corals will have more zooxanthellae, experience higher growth rates and will require more P, otherwise they suffer. Nothing to do with a ratio only available P, high or low. Lower nutrients, less zooxanthellae corals are healthier, denser and “in control”; his words and I agree.
 

Billyreef-ita

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I agree I think he was focussing more on the fact that if N is increasing, P has to follow in order to avoid problems (and this being captured by the ratio, if they both raise the ratio remains constant).

Needless to say this is valid up to a certain point, with N and P exceptionally high, even with the ideal 50 ratio, you have a problem
 

rishma

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if phosphate is at good value, say 0.1 ppm, and nitrate is high, say 100ppm…

Are corals unhealthy because nitrate is really high or because of some imbalance in the ratio?

The fundamental issue I don’t understand regarding a ratio…if N or P were limiting, wouldn’t it approach zero? Then the corals would suffer due to that limitation, not some ratio.
 

CHSUB

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if phosphate is at good value, say 0.1 ppm, and nitrate is high, say 100ppm…

Are corals unhealthy because nitrate is really high or because of some imbalance in the ratio?

The fundamental issue I don’t understand regarding a ratio…if N or P were limiting, wouldn’t it approach zero? Then the corals would suffer due to that limitation, not some ratio.
In the video, one example had high No3 and he noted it was too high by itself. Makes sense if you follow his philosophy.
 

areefer01

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Hopefully hobbyist know who Mr. Delbeek is. If not he is the Curator of Aquarium Projects - Steinhart Aquarium, California Academy of Sciences. Steinhart is a tick over 200,000 gallons. As he talks about data it is what they collect or collaborate with other curators of public aquariums.
 

rishma

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In the video, one example had high No3 and he noted it was too high by itself. Makes sense if you follow his philosophy.
I understand your first sentence. I don’t understand the second sentence. Maybe I don’t understand the philosophy or how that answers my question.
Hopefully hobbyist know who Mr. Delbeek is. If not he is the Curator of Aquarium Projects - Steinhart Aquarium, California Academy of Sciences. Steinhart is a tick over 200,000 gallons. As he talks about data it is what they collect or collaborate with other curators of public aquariums.
Oh goodness, I didn’t even think of that. Back when people read reef books everyone would have know who he is :)
 

rishma

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Imo, he is not suggesting targeting ratios. Being a follower of his advice, I interpreted that different organisms use N and P at different ratios. When N is higher, corals will have more zooxanthellae, experience higher growth rates and will require more P, otherwise they suffer. Nothing to do with a ratio only available P, high or low. Lower nutrients, less zooxanthellae corals are healthier, denser and “in control”; his words and I agree.
Your explanation makes sense to me but it’s not how I interpreted his video. He seemed very anchored on the molar ratio vs the individual levels.

I certainly am in not position to debate the man, but I feel like this video is about to spawn hundreds of threads of people asking how to hit the delbeek molar ratio.
 

areefer01

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Oh goodness, I didn’t even think of that. Back when people read reef books everyone would have know who he is :)

I sure didn't mean any disrespect by it. I was only trying to provide some context and scale :)
 

CHSUB

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Your explanation makes sense to me but it’s not how I interpreted his video. He seemed very anchored on the molar ratio vs the individual levels.

I certainly am in not position to debate the man, but I feel like this video is about to spawn hundreds of threads of people asking how to hit the delbeek molar ratio.
From following his advice for many years, I believe he advocates natural levels for all nutrients. At least that is my interpretation?
 

rishma

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From following his advice for many years, I believe he advocates natural levels for all nutrients. At least that is my interpretation?
I’m honestly not sure what Delbeek advocates, but I know you and I do not agree on this topic. While I would like to recreate ocean reef conditions in my tank, I do not think targeting ocean level nutrients is the most likely path to success for most reefers.

But we need not have that debate again :)
 

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My take from his talk besides stressing the complexity of coral reefs/tanks as systems is the problematic older trend to go for very low phosphates. A rough generalization is to keep your nitrates lower but not the phosphates. the large zooxanthellae showed in the presentation could not divide probably because of the lack of sufficient phosphate to synthesize DNA.
Low nitrate for example can represent two different scenarios: the first is very low nitrate input combined with high demand by corals (ULN systems), and the second is high turnover: a lot of nitrate generated by well-fed fish in the tank balanced by a high demand by corals. Both scenarios will yield the same nitrate readings but represent different systems.
 

TangerineSpeedo

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What I took away from the video is the ratio is a balance. If the 50:1 balance gets out of wack there will consequences. But also more than just trying to keep the 50:1 ratio in check, there is more to it than N&P. Keeping Alk and Par and PH also in relation to N&P is important. I would also like to add to this that flow needs to be added into the equation. The trick is, keeping all of these things working together. Some people will look at the video and only see ("if I keep a 50:1 ratio, all will be good"). Many reefers want a silver bullet, but it is not going to happen. Most reefers will keep the light, flow, Alk, and PH fairly consistent. Po4 and No3 usually is the variable. We are always trying to keep them in check by additive or subtractive methods, but it is a moving target. Hopefully one of the take aways from the video is even if you are keeping a 50:1 ratio, you might have to adjust other factors such as PAR or ALK as the total of the combined N&P rises or falls. Not to mention additive elements that are being used that can only be measured via ICP.
This is why we need to take the question of "What are your parameters?" with a grain of salt. Many successful reef tanks have different parameters, some of which would cause panic in a newbie and causing knee jerk reefing that would probably be fatally detrimental to their tank. But the understanding that successful reef tanks are consistent if not anything else.
A basic understanding of how all of the elements work together as a whole will help many to create, keep and maintain a successful reef tank or help trouble shoot if things start to go wrong...
Happy Reefing!
 

Dan_P

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Whether working with a gigantic aquarium or owning a hobby-size aquarium, aquarist just can’t stop making up stories to explain the unexplainable. A 50:1 ratio of nitrate nitrogen to phosphate phosphorous in the water is good or matters because that is the coral biomass ratio? Really?
 

areefer01

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Whether working with a gigantic aquarium or owning a hobby-size aquarium, aquarist just can’t stop making up stories to explain the unexplainable. A 50:1 ratio of nitrate nitrogen to phosphate phosphorous in the water is good or matters because that is the coral biomass ratio? Really?

Are you suggesting he is making up a story?
 

Dan_P

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Are you suggesting he is making up a story?

Well, maybe he dumbed down the presentation for the cocktail party and the complete version of the presentation provided a compelling case for why a nitrate excursion and phosphate depletion is such a serious threat to hard coral, well some hard coral, sometimes, in some aquaria.
 

areefer01

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Well, maybe he dumbed down the presentation for the cocktail party and the complete version of the presentation provided a compelling case for why a nitrate excursion and phosphate depletion is such a serious threat to hard coral, well some hard coral, sometimes, in some aquaria.

Thank you for the reply. The reason why I asked is because I got something totally different out of it. Rather than fixating the ratio I saw him looking at what data he had available and correlate it to troubles they encountered at the aquarium. Then reaching out to peers or other curators to assess their data and troubles, if any, and do that assessment. Expanded upon that with research teams and other data. Cause and correlation. At the end he raised the caveats.

Maybe I read more into the reply than I should have. Apologies.
 

CHSUB

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Well, maybe he dumbed down the presentation for the cocktail party and the complete version of the presentation provided a compelling case for why a nitrate excursion and phosphate depletion is such a serious threat to hard coral, well some hard coral, sometimes, in some aquaria.
Not sure if you’re trying to be sarcastic, funny or what?? Maybe appear smarter than everyone, but it’s a fail on every attempt!
 

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