Chemiclean...am I the only one?

[outhouse]

Raising nitrate does work a lot of the time

for most its the cause, and its when I get it, when my water gets dirtier. on the other side of the coin, I have very clean water now, and when I get it, its not a bad case, only in a few small areas, that does not grow. when water quality is full of nitrates it starts covering everything and rapidly spreads

 

[Reefahholic]

did a quick search, I think its here on this site. I have not found anything that kills it so well besides chemiclean

Ok let me look.

 

[outhouse]

CHEMICLEAN WARNING

I recently treated my 60g tank with the directed dose of chemiclean. I was on day 2 and I was preparing skimmer to catch skim rather then let it overflow like it was for the treatment. For me I can’t help but put my clean hands in the tank more then I should always have and never had a problem...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefahholic]

for most its the cause, and its when I get it, when my water gets dirtier. on the other side of the coin, I have very clean water now, and when I get it, its not a bad case, only in a few small areas, that does not grow. when water quality is full of nitrates it starts covering everything and rapidly spreads

Dose some Refresh or Ecobalance and see what happens. I’ve had very good luck with Dr. Tim’s products.

 

[Reefahholic]

CHEMICLEAN WARNING

I recently treated my 60g tank with the directed dose of chemiclean. I was on day 2 and I was preparing skimmer to catch skim rather then let it overflow like it was for the treatment. For me I can’t help but put my clean hands in the tank more then I should always have and never had a problem...

www.reef2reef.com

I didn’t see a Hazmat Sheet. I saw an SDS for Chemiclean Blue. I’m not sure if they’re referring to the blue box or Chemipure blue.

Interesting quotes from some other threads:

1.“We had in germany a big scandal due to this and the product was analyzed by the veterany office of Hannover
and they showed that this product is erythromycine sulfate .. this is a antibiotics whic normaly only a doctor can give up
due to the usage in this case and this ammounts the possibilitly of unwanted resistance is very big”

rgds claude

2. This quote is apparently from RC:

“I live in the city where erythromycin was discovered and first isolated 60 years ago, where it was first processed, compounded, and patented, and the only place it was manufactured in this country for a very long time. I many years ago met Dr. Jim McGuire, who led the team that first isolated and identified it, and I am quite well acquainted with one of his surviving original team members. So for kicks I asked my acquaintance about the Boyd's product and gave him a sample to look at. He did explain to me that positively identifying compounds (esters and salts) of erythromycin is a fairly complex, multistep process, but there were certain indicators one could look for, and he had a (much) younger colleague take a look. The verdict was that if the Boyd's product contained any erythromycin compounds, it was in tiny quantities, and would require some elaborate testing (the details of which went at least several feet over my head) to be certain.”


“So since my head was spinning a little, I left it at that.
If the Boyd's product does in fact not contain Erythromycin succinate as the company claims, but does contain a different ester or salt of erythromycin, then I would consider that willfully deceptive advertising that would warrant an explanation by the company. But knowing what I know now, I would still use the Boyd's product before any other.”

———————————————————
My opinion is that it is likely Erythromycin and the company is being deceptive. It’s not the exact form that they were accused of using for their product, but it does appear to be Erythromycin in a different form. Just not “Succinate.” It looks like it might be Erythromycin “SULFATE.”

 

[Reefahholic]

https://files8.design-editor.com/93/9389697/UploadedFiles/EF5C5190-948B-DB56-FC0E-EBD99608EB87.pdf

 

[Reefahholic]

Probably wouldn’t want this in your reef.

 

[alton]

I dilute it in a gallon of top water and pour it into my overflow probably once a year.

 

[Lavey29]

when ever I have used carbon, it would bring on cyano, even now mixed with gfo, i get a little now and then

Interesting, will have to research this more. I can see GFO causing issues because it reduces phosphate very quickly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They state on the box that it is not erythromycin

lol

You've been snookered!

Don't feel bad, most people are by this misleading description. That's my point.

Note: THEY DO NOT say it doesn't contain erythromycin.

If I claimed I do not have a red chevy in my driveway, does that mean I do not have a chevy in my driveway? Of course not.

They claim it does not contain "erythromycin succinate".

I and other chemists stated for many years that this claim was very unusually written. Succinate is not important. Erythromycin comes in other forms and is even approved by the FDA for human use in other forms. Succiante is just the counterion for the positively charged erythromycin. Any negatively charged ion could work in this application.

But that's just informed speculation, here's the proof, as proven in court in Germany:

Chemi-clean

Having struggled with stubborn red Cyno for a few months I decided to give Chemiclean a go. I've followed the instructions to the letter regarding turning equipment off and performing a large water change, however I still can't run the skimmer 3 days later due to the amount of foam being...

www.ultimatereef.net

In that thread, Claude from Fauna marin states:

"We had in germany a big scandal due to this and the product was analyzed by the veterany office of Hannover
and they showed that this product is erythromycine sulfate .. this is a antibiotics whic normaly only a doctor can give up due to the usage in this case and this ammounts the possibilitly of unwanted resistance is very big"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I didn’t see a Hazmat Sheet. I saw an SDS for Chemiclean Blue. I’m not sure if they’re referring to the blue box or Chemipure blue.

Chemiclean Blue made by Chemiprint is an entirely different product for a different industry: it is an ink cleaner made by an Israeli company.

Solvent Based Inks | chemiprint

www.chemiprint.com

 

[mindme]

I've used it many times, and still use it as a last resort. I will use it if it gets so thick that is start to cause problems with the coral, otherwise I think it's best to just let it run it's course. Multiple times I've managed to beat it by just letting it runs it's course, but also there have been times when it got so thick it was aggravating corals so I dosed it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

He did explain to me that positively identifying compounds (esters and salts) of erythromycin is a fairly complex, multistep process, but there were certain indicators one could look for, and he had a (much) younger colleague take a look. The verdict was that if the Boyd's product contained any erythromycin compounds, it was in tiny quantities, and would require some elaborate testing (the details of which went at least several feet over my head) to be certain.”

That seems like an odd statement to me, at least relative to quantifying any typical drug. It is easy to identify erythromycin and quantify it and has been for decades. The FDA requires it for all formulated drugs. including erythromycin.

Determination of erythromycin and related substances in enteric-coated tablet formulations by reversed-phase liquid chromatography - PubMed

An isocratic method for the identification and quantitation of erythromycin and related substances in enteric-coated tablet formulations using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) with ultraviolet (UV) detection at 205 nm is described. A novel method for sample preparation using a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Liquid chromatographic and spectrophotometric methods for the determination of erythromycin stearate and trimethoprim in tablets

Simple, accurate and precise reversed-phase liquid chromatographic (LC) and spectrophotometric methods have been developed and validated for the deter…

www.sciencedirect.com

from the second one:

"Simple, accurate and precise reversed-phase liquid chromatographic (LC) and spectrophotometric methods have been developed and validated for the determination of erythromycin stearate (ERS) and trimethoprim (TMP) in mixture."

FDA even has a recommended method to detect small traces of it in other products:

https://www.fda.gov/media/142158/download

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's another write up from Germany when Chemiclean was sold there. Translate the German into english and this is one thing you find:

"In August, we applied for a ChemiClean laboratory test via the laboratory www.eurofins.de . The result came at the end of August.

The result was then as feared:
The ChemiClean agent does contain antibiotics, and according to the laboratory's analysis, exactly 320 mg / body weight . It is a physico-chemical investigation. (LC-MS / MS) Test report number: AR-06-JJ-076115-01 and sample number: 703-2006-00076098
Start of examination 08/07/2006
End of examination 08/30/2006

This antibiotic that was found in the laboratory is called erythromycin. This is a very cheap broadband antibiotic that is in the cent range."

Interzoo 2006 in Nürnberg - schau mal rein...

Interzoo 2006 in Nürnberg - schau mal rein...

archiv.korallenriff.de

 

[thewedge]

Here's another write up from Germany when Chemiclean was sold there. Translate the German into english and this is one thing you find:

"In August, we applied for a ChemiClean laboratory test via the laboratory www.eurofins.de . The result came at the end of August.

The result was then as feared:
The ChemiClean agent does contain antibiotics, and according to the laboratory's analysis, exactly 320 mg / body weight . It is a physico-chemical investigation. (LC-MS / MS) Test report number: AR-06-JJ-076115-01 and sample number: 703-2006-00076098
Start of examination 08/07/2006
End of examination 08/30/2006

This antibiotic that was found in the laboratory is called erythromycin. This is a very cheap broadband antibiotic that is in the cent range."

Interzoo 2006 in Nürnberg - schau mal rein...

Interzoo 2006 in Nürnberg - schau mal rein...

archiv.korallenriff.de

Not sure why the result was feared

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not sure why the result was feared

I can only speculate on the fears of a person I have never met, but perhaps because it is illegal in Germany, or perhaps they do not want to use antibiotics and fear they were misled.

 

[Spare time]

lol

You've been snookered!

Don't feel bad, most people are by this misleading description. That's my point.

Note: THEY DO NOT say it doesn't contain erythromycin.

If I claimed I do not have a red chevy in my driveway, does that mean I do not have a chevy in my driveway? Of course not.

They claim it does not contain "erythromycin succinate".

I and other chemists stated for many years that this claim was very unusually written. Succinate is not important. Erythromycin comes in other forms and is even approved by the FDA for human use in other forms. Succiante is just the counterion for the positively charged erythromycin. Any negatively charged ion could work in this application.

But that's just informed speculation, here's the proof, as proven in court in Germany:

Chemi-clean

Having struggled with stubborn red Cyno for a few months I decided to give Chemiclean a go. I've followed the instructions to the letter regarding turning equipment off and performing a large water change, however I still can't run the skimmer 3 days later due to the amount of foam being...

www.ultimatereef.net

In that thread, Claude from Fauna marin states:

"We had in germany a big scandal due to this and the product was analyzed by the veterany office of Hannover
and they showed that this product is erythromycine sulfate .. this is a antibiotics whic normaly only a doctor can give up due to the usage in this case and this ammounts the possibilitly of unwanted resistance is very big"

That is pretty funny hahaha

 

[Spare time]

That wont work, been there done it. it does not work, it causes it.

The reason why I doubt raising nitrate causes it is that they can get their nitrogen through the atmosphere, so they shouldn't care how much your tank has in the water. In turn, this should decrease growth of competition but allow them to thrive.

Again, I don't like to say that x causes something, but in every case where I have seen cyano and fixed it, it was either 1. 0 nitrate, 2. elevated phosphate, or 3. both

 

[Reefahholic]

That seems like an odd statement to me, at least relative to quantifying any typical drug. It is easy to identify erythromycin and quantify it and has been for decades. The FDA requires it for all formulated drugs. including erythromycin.

Determination of erythromycin and related substances in enteric-coated tablet formulations by reversed-phase liquid chromatography - PubMed

An isocratic method for the identification and quantitation of erythromycin and related substances in enteric-coated tablet formulations using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) with ultraviolet (UV) detection at 205 nm is described. A novel method for sample preparation using a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Liquid chromatographic and spectrophotometric methods for the determination of erythromycin stearate and trimethoprim in tablets

Simple, accurate and precise reversed-phase liquid chromatographic (LC) and spectrophotometric methods have been developed and validated for the deter…

www.sciencedirect.com

from the second one:

"Simple, accurate and precise reversed-phase liquid chromatographic (LC) and spectrophotometric methods have been developed and validated for the determination of erythromycin stearate (ERS) and trimethoprim (TMP) in mixture."

FDA even has a recommended method to detect small traces of it in other products:

https://www.fda.gov/media/142158/download

Yeah, I thought the same. It should be pretty easy to test for antibiotics.

 

[Reefahholic]

I believe it’s an antibiotic and specifically Erythromycin. So the SDS for Chemipure Blue is not Chemipure. I was wondering why it said blue. When they said “Aqueous” solution, I thought they we referring to aquariums, but it just means “of or containing water.”

Feels good to get to the bottom of this. I really don’t like when companies are dishonest with us.





Phosphate RX is another product I would like to dig into. I know it’s watered down Lanthanum Chloride that their making a killing on. It’s probably like 2% LaCI to to 40mL RO water.

They will never tell you what’s in it. They’d like you to believe it’s a magic potion. I get it, they don’t want anybody to copy it.