Clarification on new DT and running a QT

Kraig

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Okay here it goes. I've been searching and reading, and reading and searching, and I think I've worked myself into a circle!!

I'm in preparation to build a new DT (40 gallon, planning a 20 gallon sump with refuge). I'm hoping to get the DT tank cycling with some live rock.

I'm trying to figure out my timing with having the DT ready, and 1 or 2 QT fish ready. I'm stilling learning about the QT process, but I'm pretty sure new fish will be going to QT before the DT for a period of time with whatever steps necessary.

A lot of the threads I read about the QT talk about seeding it with a sponge or something from the DT. I'm trying to decide if I should have my DT set up for a period of time to have it cycling and take advantage of that process (no fish yet) or if it would be better to seed the QT with something else. Seems like it takes a while to seed a sponge or something from the DT and since this will be brand new, not sure that is the best way to go. All QT tank setup's seem to often assume you already have an established DT. So with a new DT, would it be better to just plan on seeding the QT with bacteria from a bottle?

When I have the DT set up and cycling, if I'm still in the process of quarantining fish, I think I understand that I will have to keep adding ammonia in some manner to keep the cycle going until I'm able to add livestock. Is that correct?

Please note, I am in no way in a hurry for any of this. I just want to keep learning and understanding and proceed accordingly.

Thanks for the help!
Kraig
 

JumboShrimp

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Do you know anyone whose tank you trust that will let you put a couple media bags of rubble rock or ceramic pieces in their sump for two weeks? Then you could use that to see your QT... and some bottled bacteria for good measure.
 
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Kraig

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Do you know anyone whose tank you trust that will let you put a couple media bags of rubble rock or ceramic pieces in their sump for two weeks? Then you could use that to see your QT... and some bottled bacteria for good measure.
Unfortunately, I don't. That would be a great idea though.
 

JumboShrimp

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Do you have a nearby local fish store that is friendly enough to give you / sell you rubble rock, or let you park some bags in a sump for two weeks? The trouble there is, if their tanks are filled with ‘nasties’. Lol.
 
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Do you have a nearby local fish store that is friendly enough to give you / sell you rubble rock, or let you park some bags in a sump for two weeks? The trouble there is, if their tanks are filled with ‘nasties’. Lol.
I don't have any kind of relationship with any of the stores right now. I have quite a few around me, especially within a 30 mile range, but like you alluded to, not sure I could trust not getting any unwanted tag alongs.
 
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You could bottle back the qt and make sure not to over stock it. Are you planning to medicate or observe?
I'm not sure what "bottle back" means (still learning the language, lol). I feel like I should follow a few of the quarantine posts I've found on here and medicate.
 

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I'm not sure what "bottle back" means (still learning the language, lol). I feel like I should follow a few of the quarantine posts I've found on here and medicate.
Bac* auto correct lol. Bottle bacteria. I like bio Spira. There's several options and some good threads on here testing them.
 

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@Kraig Quarantines (QT) usually work well with a properly sized sponge filter as a mechanical and biological filter. Bacteria grows in the pores of the sponge for denitrification.
In order to seed it, you should treat it like any other tank seeded with bottle bacteria. Add bacteria of your choice at proper dosing, add an ammonia source at an appropriate level for the bioload capabilities needed for your planned QT fish, then wait for the ammonia to drop to zero. If you want to be sure your tank is cycling, you can wait until nitrites also drop to zero and can do another test with a second dosing of ammonia and measure how fast it drops. I can explain more details if necessary, but it is not to complicated.

For your DT, if there is a lag time between cycling and adding fish, you should provide ammonia to the tank to keep the bacteria alive (they can go dormant for a while, but it never hurts to ensure they live by feeding ammonia, either through a direct source like ammonia chloride or through some fish food).
 
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Bac* auto correct lol. Bottle bacteria. I like bio Spira. There's several options and some good threads on here testing them.
Ah, well that makes sense! My current plan is to only add maybe 2 fish at first. I know for a 40g tank, I'm not getting more than 5-6 at max so slow and steady for me. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
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@Kraig Quarantines (QT) usually work well with a properly sized sponge filter as a mechanical and biological filter. Bacteria grows in the pores of the sponge for denitrification.
In order to seed it, you should treat it like any other tank seeded with bottle bacteria. Add bacteria of your choice at proper dosing, add an ammonia source at an appropriate level for the bioload capabilities needed for your planned QT fish, then wait for the ammonia to drop to zero. If you want to be sure your tank is cycling, you can wait until nitrites also drop to zero and can do another test with a second dosing of ammonia and measure how fast it drops. I can explain more details if necessary, but it is not to complicated.

For your DT, if there is a lag time between cycling and adding fish, you should provide ammonia to the tank to keep the bacteria alive (they can go dormant for a while, but it never hurts to ensure they live by feeding ammonia, either through a direct source like ammonia chloride or through some fish food).
Thank you, this helps. I've read a lot of this, but as separate applications, either setting up QT or setting up DT. I think my main concern was, will bottled bacteria be a good way to seed to QT, and should I continue dossing DT when cycled, if quarantined fish are not ready. Your answer is kind of what I suspected would work but wasn't 100% sure.
 

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Planning on exactly the same thing and in pretty much the same situation. I was planning on using bottle bac, but don't necessarily take my advice as it will be my first tank (although I have been waiting for building work to finish in order to set up, so I've ended up having about 4 months of research time now!)
 

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Thank you, this helps. I've read a lot of this, but as separate applications, either setting up QT or setting up DT. I think my main concern was, will bottled bacteria be a good way to seed to QT, and should I continue dossing DT when cycled, if quarantined fish are not ready. Your answer is kind of what I suspected would work but wasn't 100% sure.
Yes, establishing biological filtration for denitrification is centered around populating bacteria. It does not matter much where the first bacteria comes from (bottle, established system, naturally from water/air). The specific methodology applied is based around the amount of time it takes for that method to bring the population to a high enough level to handle the tank bioload (ammonia introduction).

I've read that old tank water (at the right quality) is better for fish than new saltwater as there are some microorganisms in the water column. I tend to believe it and used some old tank water when setting up my QT.
 
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Planning on exactly the same thing and in pretty much the same situation. I was planning on using bottle bac, but don't necessarily take my advice as it will be my first tank (although I have been waiting for building work to finish in order to set up, so I've ended up having about 4 months of research time now!)
It's good to have some time for research and we get a lesson in patience at the same time!
 

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It's good to have some time for research and we get a lesson in patience at the same time!
Definitely - now I think about it we've had an empty tank sitting in the house since April! So I've had since about January/February to research. Didn't want to have a plasterer/painter who had to work around the tank, let alone the fumes.
 

ariellemermaid

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This page has a lot of specific guidance on setup. I was in your position first starting. Reading and watching videos about instant cycling I decided to fill my HOB with bags of matrix and media, added Turbostart, and added fish with a seachem ammonia badge which I trusted. The fish died, ammonia was high, and the badge never changed color.

For the second run I dosed ammonia until I confirmed it was cycled. It cycled quickly this way, but far from instant.

So here are my tips. 1) never trust the seachem badge, use regular ammonia kits. 2) use a bottled bacteria with adequate media; turbostart, microbacter, or dr. Tim’s will be faster, but you can use stability or another dormant product too. 3) Go straight to Dr. Tim’s ammonia, IMO it’s the best way to track the cycle; a known amount of ammonia and watching it be processed. 4) Always always have Prime on hand. 5) Once you add fish, test for ammonia for a week or two before starting copper to confirm everything is good. This is because once you add copper nearly all ammonia tests can produce false positives, so confirm your cycle first.

Having a 1 month old seeded sponge is great but it’s not magic. The next time I set up a QT I added an old sponge but still had an ammonia spike when I added fish, I just used Prime to get them through. Also, the seeded sponge idea is more for someone who breaks down the QT between batches or needs to set one up in an emergency. If you keep the tank up and cycled you’ll be good. And like I said, don’t trust that just dropping a sponge in means instant cycle.
 
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This page has a lot of specific guidance on setup. I was in your position first starting. Reading and watching videos about instant cycling I decided to fill my HOB with bags of matrix and media, added Turbostart, and added fish with a seachem ammonia badge which I trusted. The fish died, ammonia was high, and the badge never changed color.

For the second run I dosed ammonia until I confirmed it was cycled. It cycled quickly this way, but far from instant.

So here are my tips. 1) never trust the seachem badge, use regular ammonia kits. 2) use a bottled bacteria with adequate media; turbostart, microbacter, or dr. Tim’s will be faster, but you can use stability or another dormant product too. 3) Go straight to Dr. Tim’s ammonia, IMO it’s the best way to track the cycle; a known amount of ammonia and watching it be processed. 4) Always always have Prime on hand. 5) Once you add fish, test for ammonia for a week or two before starting copper to confirm everything is good. This is because once you add copper nearly all ammonia tests can produce false positives, so confirm your cycle first.

Having a 1 month old seeded sponge is great but it’s not magic. The next time I set up a QT I added an old sponge but still had an ammonia spike when I added fish, I just used Prime to get them through. Also, the seeded sponge idea is more for someone who breaks down the QT between batches or needs to set one up in an emergency. If you keep the tank up and cycled you’ll be good. And like I said, don’t trust that just dropping a sponge in means instant cycle.
Thank you for the info! I've read a lot of this, but there is so much back and forth in the conversations and I'm new, I don't have a good way to judge for myself. I'm sure over time, I will start to develop opinions for myself but until then I have to follow something!! This is probably what I'm going to be doing. I need to look into using prime a little more. The only thing I remember reading right now (I think) is that you don't want to add prime if you have dosed copper (and maybe other meds).
 

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I'm a little ahead of you with my setup. I've been documenting my QT process here:


I started my QT well before I got my DT up and running. Worked out perfectly as my first batch of fish finished quarantining as my DT was just finishing it's initial cycle.
 
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I'm a little ahead of you with my setup. I've been documenting my QT process here:


I started my QT well before I got my DT up and running. Worked out perfectly as my first batch of fish finished quarantining as my DT was just finishing it's initial cycle.
Nice!

I'll take a look at your QT process, thank you.
 

ariellemermaid

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All I can point you to right now is this post where Prime and Copper Power seem to be compatible. Definitely don’t use it with ionic copper. Now, whether it decreases effectiveness or not I don’t know. However that’s why I say make sure ammonia is under control before adding copper in part also, because when you do add copper you can’t trust your ammonia test anyway. But Prime is indispensable when you’re setting up a QT and first adding fish with a weak bio filter.
 
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