Clarifying the meaning of "not responsible for shipper delays"

[EMeyer]

Hi all,

I'm writing to open a discussion about a phrase many sellers use, that is often not spelled out clearly enough. My hope is the community has a consensus on how to interpret this phrase, or at least that this will prompt sellers to be more specific.

Sellers often say "not responsible for shipper delays". This sounds perfectly reasonable but there are at least two different interpretations of the phrase out there.

1. If the shipping company delivers your package late, I cannot refund your shipping cost (which you paid for on-time arrival) but will still cover DOAs.
2. If the shipping company delivers your package late, I cannot refund either shipping cost or the costs of any DOAs, since it's the shipper's fault.

I would never knowingly enter into a sale under definition 2. Definition 1 seems entirely fair to me. My reasoning is this. I consider it appropriate that in the event of shipping accidents, both the buyer and the seller should share the loss. The buyer loses out on shipping costs, and the seller on the coral costs. Under definition 1, the seller loses *nothing*, its just as profitable as a successful shipment from the seller perspective.

But of course any seller can set the terms of their sale, and the buyer can accept them or not. I am only suggesting more clarity in this particular term of sale.

R2R, how do you interpret this phrase "not responsible for shipping errors"? Meaning 1 or meaning 2?

[This thread would be best in the Sales forum but that thing moves too fast except for sticky posts. If mods prefer to move it there, please feel free]

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Number 2. Because it is out of the vendors power if it gets delayed nor is it their fault. If the delay goes over 1 day shipping the chance of your coral dying goes way up and they will get more doas reported which would hurt buisiness.It's a way to cover their backs. Some shippers only allow doa claims up to a few hours after delivery time
I think you have to dispute it with the shipper themself

 

[EMeyer]

To clarify, the buyer can never dispute anything with the shipper. Only the seller. The seller had a contract with the shipper, while the buyer is a nobody from the shipper's perspective.

 

[smartwater101]

2. If the shipping company delivers your package late, I cannot refund either shipping cost or the costs of any DOAs, since it's the shipper's fault.

It's almost always number two. Tbh... I think it's fair. The seller can't be expected to refund money because of shipping issues. I especially think the two-hour DOA rule is smart business.
Also, most sellers do not offer refunds on shipping in the first place. DOA applies to the animals only.


These are living animals and Its nice anyone even offers refunds, considering the wide variation in how people care for their 'big clear box of captivity.' Side note: sometimes I'm surprised LFS offer refunds at all. If the animal leaves the store healthy, there a billion factors that could lead to it's death. errr...maybe I just don't trust people lol

 

[EMeyer]

It's almost always number two. Tbh... I think it's fair. The seller can't be expected to refund money because of shipping issues.

Follow up question, how is it fair that the seller loses nothing at all, and the buyer loses everything? In definition 1 they share the loss.

I'll also note that all aquarium livestock companies go with definition 1. You get a refund for DOA livestock if they arrive late and dead. Always. Why are people supporting a different rule for hobbyist sellers? This surprises me.

 

[smartwater101]

Follow up question, how is it fair that the seller loses nothing at all, and the buyer loses everything? In definition 1 they share the loss.

I'll also note that all aquarium livestock companies go with definition 1. You get a refund for DOA livestock if they arrive late and dead. Always. Why are people supporting a different rule for hobbyist sellers? This surprises me.

Because, as a buyer, I'm the one accepting the risk and expecting living creatures to survive the journey to my home. Unless the seller is terrible at packaging, they have zero control once the animals are out of their hands. I can always go to a LFS if I'm uncomfortable with this risk or with the sellers DOA rules. (Honestly, I think a good seller would throw a small refund, or offer discount on next purchase, if something happens anyway. But it's not good business to make it a policy to do so.)

As for business vs hobbiest: a true business is buying things at wholesale prices and also have their own warranty policies with those wholesalers. So their risk is far lower than someone in the hobby.

 

[smartwater101]

To clarify, the buyer can never dispute anything with the shipper. Only the seller. The seller had a contract with the shipper, while the buyer is a nobody from the shipper's perspective.

I've always been curious how this works with live animals. What hoops do sellers have to go through in order to get places like FedEx to refund, not just the shipping costs, but the value of the animals inside? I'd image it's a nightmare trying to get FedEx to budge but I'd really like to know sellers experiences.

Edit: I'm assuming the policies are vastly different when live animals are the cargo... perhaps not?

 

[vanpire]

I believe that you can buy insurance for loss of sales due to spoilage on the declared value of the package if the shipment does not arrive on time. You have to do this in advance and notify Fedex of the circumstance.

 

[EMeyer]

I have gotten lots of refunds from shipping companies for late arrivals. I havent had to claim the insurance value since typically my animals survive delays in shipping anyway. I'd also be curious to hear others' experiences on that front.

One thing is clear -- the buyer is completely out of luck under definition 2. Only the seller can get a refund from the shipper, not the buyer. So the insurance thing doesnt affect the outcome for the buyer - they lose everything. In fact, under definition 2, the seller can keep both the buyer's money *and* the insurance. Since the buyer has already accepted that they will get no refund.

Still shaking my head over here.

 

[Silver14SS]

I'm paying for a live product, if it doesn’t arrive alive, I don’t feel I should bear any responsibility. I won’t buy unless there’s a live arrival guarantee.

If someone is in the business of selling live things, they should account for a certain amount of losses as a cost of doing business.

 

[smartwater101]

I'm paying for a live product, if it doesn’t arrive alive, I don’t feel I should bear any responsibility. I won’t buy unless there’s a live arrival guarantee.

Same. I don't think I've ever seen someone, in R2R, not offer refunds for dead arrivals. That would be strange. Though to be fair I've never had an issue with this.

If someone is in the business of selling live things, they should account for a certain amount

I feel like the difference between a hobbiest "business" and a true business are getting lost here. There is a giant chasm between the two. In a hobby setting, both the buyer and seller are taking on MUCH more risk.

I do think, however, if the seller is able to get a refund from FedEx, it should be policy to extend that to the buyer. But I have a feeling getting refunds for more than just the shipping cost is nearly impossible when live animals are involved. But then again, I hate FedEx so I may just be assuming the worst haha

 

[Sump Crab]

Seller can set any terms that they would like. Before you buy ask seller to clearly define terms regarding late shipping and DOA. If you find unacceptable do not purchase, if you find the risk acceptable go ahead and purchase. Buyers right to choose who they do business with.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Some offer credit only for doa which is fair if shipping messes up

 

[Silver14SS]

I feel like the difference between a hobbiest "business" and a true business are getting lost here. There is a giant chasm between the two. In a hobby setting, both the buyer and seller are taking on MUCH more risk.

Agreed, my preference is to buy livestock from an actual business to mitigate that risk.

 

[EMeyer]

Seller can set any terms that they would like. Before you buy ask seller to clearly define terms regarding late shipping and DOA. If you find unacceptable do not purchase, if you find the risk acceptable go ahead and purchase. Buyers right to choose who they do business with.

I completely agree with this. I fully support the right of any seller that wants to make definition 2 their policy. Buyers can choose whether to buy or not based on that info.

The reason for my post is that this phrase "not responsible for shipper delays" is very commonly used by R2R sellers. But there are multiple definitions for it. I think clarity is needed here.

 

[EMeyer]

Same. I don't think I've ever seen someone, in R2R, not offer refunds for dead arrivals. That would be strange. Though to be fair I've never had an issue with this.

Every R2R seller I've dealt with has been great. This is a good community and that extends to the sales in my experience. So I wouldnt really say I've had an issue with it. Misunderstandings among fair-minded people are easily resolved.

But I have definitely encountered sellers who hold to definition 2, which means no refunds for dead arrivals if it arrives late. As we've seen in this thread, there is a diversity of opinions on this. I figured, rather than clutter up every sale post with requests for clarifications, it might be worth discussing publicly.

 

[Sump Crab]

I completely agree with this. I fully support the right of any seller that wants to make definition 2 their policy. Buyers can choose whether to buy or not based on that info.

The reason for my post is that this phrase "not responsible for shipper delays" is very commonly used by R2R sellers. But there are multiple definitions for it. I think clarity is needed here.

Trues clarification must be done by each individual seller, no group consensus matters here.

 

[reeferKen]

anyone ever have success getting the insurance claim paid on coral form a shipping company? Thanks.

"you can buy insurance for loss of sales due to spoilage on the declared value of the package if the shipment does not arrive on time. You have to do this in advance and notify Fedex of the circumstance."

 

[PPPPPP42]

This whole discussion revolves around whether or not the shipping company will give a seller a refund for the overnight shipping cost on late packages and offer insurance for dead livestock.
Otherwise I don't expect the seller to cover it either.

I think the best insurance is patience.
You are taking a much larger risk to order living things to Wisconsin in January or Arizona in June. Wait until the temperatures outside are something reasonable.
For me winter sales are an extra risk of throwing it all away so it better not be super expensive or something I can get later in the year.

I always consider the LFS to be option number one, especially for fish. Considering the cost of shipping, the fact that I want them to stay in business and the fact that I can see the living thing doing its thing in person first (with no ridiculous lighting) thats a worlds better option even though the two nearest shops are an hour and a half and two hours away one way.

 

[Wolters_88]

I will never order online from people with that policy anymore. Lost a couple grand in torches because the package got stuck in Indianapolis and by the time it got to me it was like ice water. DOA policy (I didn’t know about) screwed me and the guy said FedEx won’t allow you to insure since it’s alive. So just lost everything.