Clarity on Tropic Marin Part C

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can someone tell me if I have the following correct which is my understanding.....
Salinity rises slowly over time when using balling A, B, and C because just like with nabicarb and cacl excess nacl is left over the difference being that with balling that excess is balanced with mag /trace so the proper ratios are maintained. Either way your salinity will rise eventually and again the difference being that with balling that excess salinity is in the proper ratio.

I also believe some people confuse salinity to mean just a [nacl] increase whereas salinity is really all the salts, BUT do the devices we use like refractometers to measure salinity really measure them all salts or do they only detect some?

Yes, all of the devices we use detect all of the ions in seawater, but in practical terms, the big 4 (Sodium, chloride, magnesium, sulfate) so dominate the result that the others hardly matter.

 

[burningbaal]

The way to think of it is NOT as a supplement. It makes the end result exactly the same as doing a very small water change. Very small.

To be clear, A very small water change that also gives calcium and alk of a way bigger change, right?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To be clear, A very small water change that also gives calcium and alk of a way bigger change, right?

Well, yes. If you use this or a well designed two part to add calcium and alkalinity (1.1 dKH per day) then the effect on everything else is very roughly like doing one 32% water change once a year (or something like 0.1% each day).

 

[dhof]

The way to think of it is NOT as a supplement. It makes the end result exactly the same as doing a very small water change. Very small.

Given all the information in this thread so far, it seems clear that Balling Part C is not a meaningful way to supplement trace element depletion in a reef tank. While it may theoretically add a very small amount of trace elements, it doesn't seem intended to be a trace element supplement. It seems to be more tailored to achieve better balance with the spare NaCl left over from two part dosing.

There are several BRS videos that reference using Balling Part C as a trace supplement method, so that may be fueling some of the disinformation out there about this product. While BRS are not the absolute authority, many of us common-folk do view their content as highly reliable. Maybe BRS would be willing to edit their videos which imply that Balling part C can be used as a solution for trace element supplementation. For example this video about trace element supplementation where at 25:00 min mark they are describing the dosing for BallingPartC as a viable trace element supplementation strategy: . There are 2 other videos which imply similar things.

Thank you guys for all this information. I may still continue to use TMballingPartC, but I won't be doing so in order to fully supplement trace element depletion in my tank. I'll be researching other methods of trace element supplementation in addition to the balling part C, or just switching back to a trace element supplement alone.

 

[burningbaal]

ya, it's a little tricky. it does technically have trace elements in it, and it does help keep the trace elements in balance, so the facts aren't quite false. The issue is that there's no such thing as a magical elixir that will keep each element in check; you've got to either guess or test, those are the options. this is a big part of why people advocate for water changes (the trace elements are replaced, not just dosed). At this point, my reef is too little and new to need much of anything, but my plan is to use either Balling 3-part or a calcium reactor (when I get a larger reef) to manage the baseline, for now, I need to do water changes to keep up on nutrient export (but I'm hoping some Xport-NO3, my little fuge, and carbon dosing fixes that), in my new reef, I expect a big fuge and big skimmer to handle that. When I stop doing water changes for nutrient export, I plan to start doing something like Triton tests about twice a year to make sure I'm staying on track with trace elements.

I'll always test Ca, Alk, Mg routinely (approx weekly). if Balling/CaRx don't keep up with Mg, I'll add magnesium (either separate dosing or Mg media in the CaRx). if Triton finds other things falling off, I may shift to a different additive that does Mg and some trace, or I may dose specific trace elements, depends on what the test results say. If it's a general dimishing of all trace, I'll just use a 'trace in a bottle' product. If specific things are falling off, I'll dose them.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I don't pretend to understand the chemistry here, but I've recently switched away from dosing all 4 separate Red Sea Trace colors, to using TM Balling Part C. I am using BRS Soda Ash and BRS Calcium for the first 2 parts.

I do understand that TM Part C does not supplement or make up for used or consumed Mg, and I think the forum/videos/etc is pretty clear about it not being an adequate Mg supplementation plan. I do plan on using the BRS 2 part adjustment Mg whenever appropriate.

But from reading a bunch of posts on this board, watching the TM videos, and even BRS has a video which mentions it, I did get the impression that using TM Part C use would be an appropriate way to ensure trace element supply is maintained in-tact. My perception, at least, is that TM part C provides the trace element supplementation to my tank, and potentially even helps to balance out the NaCl thing (which seems debatable whether this is really necessary, but my opinion is that it can't really hurt anything).

So, my motivation in moving to TM Part C was purely to supplement Trace element levels in a simple and reliable way (single dosing head). But then Lou writes "Part C DOES NOT do anything to "supplement" or "make up" for used or consumed Mg and trace elements". I think I understand the Mg part of this sentence, but I'm not sure the trace part really correlates with the information out there currently (or, should I say mis-information?)

I really hope TM C is supposed to supplement trace elements, because if they are going through the hassle of adding something like 70 trace elements into TM Part C, just so it will balance the NaCl, it seems like a lot of work for a theoretical benefit....

If you understand the Mg part of my statement, then you should understand the trace element part as well. They are exactly the same thing. ALL of the Mg in the PArt C goes to ionically balance the NaCl created from the Parts A and B. And so do ALL of the trce elements. They all get "diluted" when you bring the elevated salinity back down to NSW level. I'm sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense. But if you get the relationship for the Mg, it is EXACTLY the same for the traces. They all get diluted. Part C is not meant as a trace element supplementation product and it is best if it is not used as such. That is why we make TM A Elements and TM K Elements.
I hope this helps.

 

[Jyoung09]

Sorry that I am only seeing this now.

Water changes will correct only a portion of the ionic imbalance created by the parts A and B. For instance, if you do a 15% water change, every 2 weeks, you will correct 15% of the imbalance on that day, every two weeks. This is not enough of a correction in my opinion.

The Balling Part C corrects all of that imbalance on a daily basis.

As far as what would be needed to be added to the Tropic Marin Balling Part C to make complete sea salt? You would have to add the appropriate amount of NaCl, along with the proper amounts of calcium and carbonates. None of those are in the Part C. Part C does contain Mg and all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water.

So I just bought the part C. I am dosing calcium and alk separately. Should I be monitoring the amount of mag this raises to determine my daily dose of this? I have a 75gal tank.

 

[Lou Ekus]

So I just bought the part C. I am dosing calcium and alk separately. Should I be monitoring the amount of mag this raises to determine my daily dose of this? I have a 75gal tank.

No, You have to dose Mg separately. The Trace elements and Mg, in the Part C only serve to balance the excess NaCl from the Parts A and B. The Part C is NOT a Mg and Trace element supplement. Trace elements and Mg still get dosed separately.

 

[GoVols]

So I just bought the part C. I am dosing calcium and alk separately. Should I be monitoring the amount of mag this raises to determine my daily dose of this? I have a 75gal tank.

The TM Balling part C is for a longer and more stable Ion balance.

I've seen it used with BRS two part as well, to even out the BRS two part daily doses, more equal to each other.

That's why sells TM K and A trace elements in separate products.

Hope that helps.

 

[YankeeTankee]

So I just bought the part C. I am dosing calcium and alk separately. Should I be monitoring the amount of mag this raises to determine my daily dose of this? I have a 75gal tank.

You should dose mag and trace separately. This may sound confusing but even though part C has mag and trace in it, if you want to add more of either, you should use a different product ie trace a and k or mag.

 

[GoVols]

The 3rd part in full Balling...

(NaCl) free sea salt. It contains all the other basic components found in natural seawater, such as Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Bromine, Fluorine, Barium, Iodine, and trace elements.

NaCl free salt is one of the most important components of the Balling method, and it plays a significant role when Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate supplementation is in place.

It is a common misconception among reefers that administering NaCl free salt is primarily supposed to replenish trace elements. The main task of Sodium Chloride free salt is to maintain ionic balance of aquarium water.

 

[Jyoung09]

The TM Balling part C is for a longer and more stable Ion balance.

I've seen it used with BRS two part as well, to even out the BRS two part daily doses, more equal to each other.

That's why sells TM K and A trace elements in separate products.

Hope that helps.

Got it. Yea i am currently dosing BRS alk, calcium, and mag all separate. Thought part C was just trace elements but looks like ill need the K and A instead of Part C.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Got it. Yea i am currently dosing BRS alk, calcium, and mag all separate. Thought part C was just trace elements but looks like ill need the K and A instead of Part C.

That is not toally correct. The Balling Part C will ionically balance the left over sodium chloride from the BRS alkalinity and calcium that you are dosing. Then you use the Mg and the trace elements to supplement those things. It's not one or the other.

 

[Jyoung09]

That is not toally correct. The Balling Part C will ionically balance the left over sodium chloride from the BRS alkalinity and calcium that you are dosing. Then you use the Mg and the trace elements to supplement those things. It's not one or the other.

Ok so lets get the overall picture here then. I currently dose BRS alk, mag, and calcium. I also have no issues and do every other week water changes. I use Tropic Marin pro salt. I came across some videos discussing trace elements and what not so decided I should give the Part C a go but haven't started anything yet.

After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so lets get the overall picture here then. I currently dose BRS alk, mag, and calcium. I also have no issues and do every other week water changes. I use Tropic Marin pro salt. I came across some videos discussing trace elements and what not so decided I should give the Part C a go but haven't started anything yet.

After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin.

If you use Balling Part C, do not use the BRS magnesium part, as the Part C is essentially the BRS recipe plus some other ingredients.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Ok so lets get the overall picture here then. I currently dose BRS alk, mag, and calcium. I also have no issues and do every other week water changes. I use Tropic Marin pro salt. I came across some videos discussing trace elements and what not so decided I should give the Part C a go but haven't started anything yet.

After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin.

I'm afraid that I have to, once again, dissagree with @Randy Holmes-Farley here. Sorry Randy. But in the true Balling method, the ONLY thing the Part C is used for is ionically balancing the left over NaCl from the Parts A and B (that you are using from BRS). The Mg in the Part C is NOT meant as, and should not be used as, the Mg supplementation in the tank. In the true Balling Method, the amount of the Part C that is used, is the correct amount to create that ionic balance. Then, you supplement the trace elements and the Mg as needed SEPARATELY.
So @Jyoung09, when you said "After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin. " You are absolutely correct. With the additional comment that you will also need to keep an eye on your Mg level. And, when needed, use a separate Mg additive to supplement that, NOT increase the Part C.
If you need, or would like, a more in depth explanation of this, please don't hesitate to give me a call in the office at 413-367-0101.

 

[Jyoung09]

If you use Balling Part C, do not use the BRS magnesium part, as the Part C is essentially the BRS recipe plus some other ingredients.

Idk just watched Lou's video on how that works. Looks like you still need to supplement mag. Since you are adding part c with fresh water it is only balancing things out. not replacing what is consumed.

 

[Jyoung09]

I'm afraid that I have to, once again, dissagree with @Randy Holmes-Farley here. Sorry Randy. But in the true Balling method, the ONLY thing the Part C is used for is ionically balancing the left over NaCl from the Parts A and B (that you are using from BRS). The Mg in the Part C is NOT meant as, and should not be used as, the Mg supplementation in the tank. In the true Balling Method, the amount of the Part C that is used, is the correct amount to create that ionic balance. Then, you supplement the trace elements and the Mg as needed SEPARATELY.
So @Jyoung09, when you said "After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin. " You are absolutely correct. With the additional comment that you will also need to keep an eye on your Mg level. And, when needed, use a separate Mg additive to supplement that, NOT increase the Part C.
If you need, or would like, a more in depth explanation of this, please don't hesitate to give me a call in the office at 413-367-0101.

Thank you. I greatly appreciate all the information. I was just very confused at the beginning of this but that video i just posted and your replies has helped greatly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm afraid that I have to, once again, dissagree with @Randy Holmes-Farley here. Sorry Randy. But in the true Balling method, the ONLY thing the Part C is used for is ionically balancing the left over NaCl from the Parts A and B (that you are using from BRS). The Mg in the Part C is NOT meant as, and should not be used as, the Mg supplementation in the tank. In the true Balling Method, the amount of the Part C that is used, is the correct amount to create that ionic balance. Then, you supplement the trace elements and the Mg as needed SEPARATELY.
So @Jyoung09, when you said "After this post i am gather i should be doing Part C already to balance the system currently from the BRS products and then still supplement the K and A elements from Tropic Marin. " You are absolutely correct. With the additional comment that you will also need to keep an eye on your Mg level. And, when needed, use a separate Mg additive to supplement that, NOT increase the Part C.
If you need, or would like, a more in depth explanation of this, please don't hesitate to give me a call in the office at 413-367-0101.

i do not need an explanation of your product. I perfectly well understand it and do not disagree with your comment about what part C is. It is simple chemistry. It is insulting for you to claim I do not understand it.

The BRS magnesium part of the three part is ALSO not a magnesium supplement. I very clearly state what it should and should not be used for. It is mostly designed to offset the NaCl rise so that resetting the salinity does not deplete magnesium or sulfate.

You Part C is mostly magnesium sulfate, plus other chemicals that I agree are important to off set the effect of the salinity rise.

The BRS supplement is essentially the magnesium sulfate portion of your Part C. It likely has somewhat more magnesium since it also allows for some calcification consumption.

Most importantly, the point I was making is totally valid: that the BRS part 3 SHOULD NOT be used as normally directed (610 mL of the magnesium part per gallon of the alk part) IF you choose to use the Balling Part C. It will be a duplicative addition of magnesium and sulfate.

 

[Lou Ekus]

i do not need an explanation of your product. I perfectly well understand it and do not disagree with your comment about what part C is. It is simple chemistry. It is insulting for you to claim I do not understand it.

The BRS magnesium part of the three part is ALSO not a magnesium supplement. I very clearly state what it should and should not be used for. It is mostly designed to offset the NaCl rise so that resetting the salinity does not deplete magnesium or sulfate.

You Part C is mostly magnesium sulfate, plus other chemicals that I agree are important to off set the effect of the salinity rise.

The BRS supplement is essentially the magnesium sulfate portion of your Part C. It likely has somewhat more magnesium since it also allows for some calcification consumption.

Most importantly, the point I was making is totally valid: that the BRS part 3 SHOULD NOT be used as normally directed (610 mL of the magnesium part per gallon of the alk part) IF you choose to use the Balling Part C. It will be a duplicative addition of magnesium and sulfate.

@Randy Holmes-Farley My very specific and detailed explanation of the Balling Part C was meant as clarification for @Jyoung09, not for your benefit. I know you know the chemistry of it. But this was his thread. And it sounded like he needed that clarification.
I agree with almost everything you have said! My comments were because your statement to him was "If you use Balling Part C, do not use the BRS magnesium part, as the Part C is essentially the BRS recipe plus some other ingredients." If you had said not to use it "as directed" I would have felt differently about what you were saying. The implication (to me) of what you actually said was that the Balling Part C and the BRS Mg were essentially the same thing, which they are definitely not, and he should use one or the other. That, to me, is the point I wanted to clarify.
Lastly, BRS makes a few different Mg. One meant to be used with the two part, one meant to raise levels etc. None of which contain any trace elements like the Balling Part C. (I know you know this as well). The only thing that distinguishes between, what they call maintenance and supplementation, is the ratio of magnesium chloride to magnesium sulfate. I agree 100% with your statement that "Most importantly, the point I was making is totally valid: that the BRS part 3 SHOULD NOT be used as normally directed (610 mL of the magnesium part per gallon of the alk part) IF you choose to use the Balling Part C. It will be a duplicative addition of magnesium and sulfate." But to me, the difference in this statement, and the one your originally made is the "as normally directed" part. I wanted to be sure that jyoung9 understood that the BRS Mg product he would be using, would be the supplementation. And that the Balling Part C, although containing Mg, would be to ionically balance that excess NaCl.
I really think at the end of the day, this comes down to semantics. And that you and I are in total agreement about this. i was just clarifying for his understanding. Not for yours.