Clever and/or engineer type people! Impossible or not, Can it be done??

[pdxmonkeyboy]

A flood sensor which closed a valve on the drain lines would make it pretty flood proof. That, combined with spring loaded gate valve is pretty fool proof..

Maybe I am missing something but everyone has a bigger tank plumbed to a smaller tank underneath.. DT and sump

 

[Battlecorals]

A flood sensor which closed a valve on the drain lines would make it pretty flood proof. That, combined with spring loaded gate valve is pretty fool proof..

Maybe I am missing something but everyone has a bigger tank plumbed to a smaller tank underneath.. DT and sump

The trick really is though, that I do not want to rely in any way, on a mechanical device or sensor as an integral part of the setup

 

[justingraham]

So the issue i do see with this set up is that if the low pump shuts off for any reason, the high pump will keep sending water down to the display

Shoot let me rethink

 

[justingraham]

Is noise an issue?

 

[Battlecorals]

Is noise an issue?

not really. the hum of the three iwaki returns, literally right above my desk, Ive gotten very used to lol

 

[justingraham]

not really. the hum of the three iwaki returns, literally right above my desk, Ive gotten very used to lol

I was thinking of switching the emergency with the full syphon line but without a switch or something to shut off the pump this way isn’t going to work and I can’t think of any other way sorry

 

[erk]

The main considerations to address are that 1) if the return pump fails, water stops flowing and 2) that the flow rate in does not exceed flow rate out.

The second one is easily addressed with a gate valve.

The first one is a bit trickier. I don't know the size/layout of your sump that you wish to plumb into. I would consider a sump drain such that it's height is set below a point which the volume of water above it does not exceed the holding capacity of the tank if say the return pump fails AND other items cause the sump to overfill. You could install an overflow inside the sump that will maintain a set water height. If you want the surge capacity, then you could go with an adjustable check valve. Something with a holding force that once exceeded would allow the rush of water out. Maybe a toilet flushing mechanism where a float lifts open a valve once the preset water height is reached. There are many ways about this.

 

[ross0201]

So, I've been seriously thinking about setting up another small display in my office which is underneath my grow-out facility. Been going back and forth on this a while actually, but what I'd love to do, if not just "possible" but 100% "floodproof possible", is have it connected to my main system upstairs. the plumbing will not be easy but that part I'm confident I can manage. The actual total execution, I'm not so sure about yet.

I'm sure I am not the first one to ponder this concept, but I'd like to know if anyone has either done this or may have some "smarts" on how I can pull it off. Sometimes in situations like this, someone will just say, "Oh sure, you just need a Blankety blank" and you're good to go. lol

The challenge clearly, is getting water to circulate safely, from my sump above to the tank below.

My first thought was modeled off of how a surge device works. Somehow have the water from the upper reservoir, circulate with sump water. maybe a separate overflow on the reservoir and it would continuously cycle water from the sump. And keep a minimum amount of water in the reservoir below the low drain point of the surge that would always be cycling sump water through. The turnover for the display would be pretty low but I think it may work, or some variation of this notion at least. And that's why I am reaching out on this one. I'm sure there's a way it could be done but I can't quite get there lol

The water level in the display tank would always fluctuate as the surge reservoir filled and drained, but I don't know that I'd really care so much. If that was the only snag id be very ok with it in fact. But I'd love to get some other ideas and concepts and really just spitball a little.

maybe ill work up a little diagram as well that might help to clarify the idea.

Ultimately in its simplest form, id like to plumb a new display to the sump on the floor above it rather than set up a whole new system

what do you guys think? can it be done?

As long as you're ok with the water level changing in display why not go with your original idea, maybe add an overflow as high in the display as you can for an emergency water catch? When everything is turned back on just pump out the emergency overflow into the display with a utility pump.

 

[Richard_dicosimo]

If it were me I would not do the surge from your upstairs sump. Instead I would run my office tank with a sump.

If you installed a high point drain in your upstairs sump that drained to your office sump, and then pumped water from your office sump back to your upstairs sump you would have a loop that wouldn't need to be balanced in/out as long as you were able to maintain your water height in your upstairs sump.

Then if you really wanted a surge device you could just add it between your office sump and office tank. I'm not a fan of surge devices myself. too much noise and bubbles for me.

The only thing you would have to worry about with this setup is your autotop off upstairs fluctuating and the water flowing back into the office sump and exceeding the office sump capacity in the case of a power outage. After thinking about this your downstairs sump would become the spot where your water height fluctuates due to evaporation. your autotop off would have to be down in the office sump to maintain water height.

With this setup you basically have a loop between your upstairs sump and downstairs sump and a loop between your office sump and office display tank. Also in my opinion this is the simplest most fail safe way to do it. no optical sensors or check valves.

 

[Silent]

The trick really is though, that I do not want to rely in any way, on a mechanical device or sensor as an integral part of the setup

I just dont think you are going to get that 100% floodproof you are wanting with a mechanical device or sensor.

 

[nitrodude]

Theres only one way I can think of that could possibly work without being a balding act between pumps/gloat switches...and it's probably not what youd want

Main display on top story, sump under it, new display bottom story, sump under that one.
Only return pump being on the sump on the new display going up to the display in the 2nd story.
2nd story main display would overflow to main sump, main sump overflow to new 1st floor diisplay, new display overflow to new sump then return punp back up to 2nd story main.

Bottom level sump would need to be big enough to house the shutoff water volume-which would probably be a decent amount.
This would also move your ato location to the bottom story new sump.
And im not sure what you run, but you probably couldnt keep as much flow throug the sump as youd want

Hmmm, guess you can scratch my idea ;Hilarious ;Hilarious

This is a tough one.
Good luck!

 

[welsher7]

Thanks a lot for the post! I definitely get your concept. Thing is the water line goes way up when i shut the pumps off and i do that pretty regularly. would be a flood at some point guaranteed....

Maybe I over simplified things but.

Can you figure out the volume the sump raises when it has no power? If it isn’t a a crazy large amount it might be as simple as building your office display taller to accommodate the extra volume. similar to how are sumps work, you would have a lower operating level and a higher no power level. but if it is too tall you lose the ability to work in the display.......hmmmmm

 

[Kevin Duprey]

Thanks a lot for the post! I definitely get your concept. Thing is the water line goes way up when i shut the pumps off and i do that pretty regularly. would be a flood at some point guaranteed. I don't have the room for a large sump downstairs. and matching flow rates with values is also way to scary to me lol.

Ok, thinking some more, you're original idea is probably best with one small tweak. If you can find a way to put the pump from the downstairs display and the pump that supplies the surge tank on the same circuit, this might be your best solution. Assuming this circuit has a switch on it that you use to shut off the pump upstairs, make sure that switch controls the entire circuit. That way when you shut off the upstairs pump, the downstairs shuts off as well. If you lose power on that circuit, they also both shut off. Then you're display just needs to have enough free volume to support the water in the upflow pipe. By my calculations, assuming a 1.5 inch diameter pipe with a 12 foot run, that's only a bit over 1 gallon.

 

[karlandtanya]

I have never done this but have considered a remote basement sump. So wouldn’t This be the same exact concept? The office tank becomes the remote “sump” which is just a fancy lit sump with the craziest SPS around!

Im sure your concern is the sump volume in the aquaculture facility upstairs has a much larger volume and if something goes wrong it’s a huge mess

Yes, this is exactly what I've done (basement sump).
The upstairs display tank is drilled with an overflow box, so it will never totally empty; just down to the overflow.
The sump capacity and running fill level is such that if I turn off the pump and the display tank drains down to the overflow, the sump doesn't overflow. ATO keeps the sump at its specified fill level during normal operation.

Whenever I feed, I turn off the pumps and everything drains down exactly as expected.

 

[Cannoy]

i’m not sure if it would move enough water to keep things stable but you could use the neptune dos. you could set it up like you would for auto water changes and cycle water from upstairs to down stairs and back. and i know this is mechanical but if it fails there would be no flood.

nevermind, i see this was already suggested lol

 

[Brew12]

here's a super crude drawing that may help clarify what I am thinking

figure the reservoir is 20-40 gallons at most the "surge water" will be the only water that goes back to the display once the float is activated and the valve opens up.


The water marked "constant Circulation" is sump water fed to the reservoir constantly at a very low rate and drain out the overflow.

the "surge water" will be pumped from the display faster than the overflow can handle so it fills up the reservoir thus activating the float and releasing that amount back to the display.





does that make sense?

I love the thought behind this, but I would recommend putting some "real world" numbers as flow and turnover rates that you would need. I know you have said "low flow" from the sump to the surge tank, but it needs to be enough to replace the new water from the tank. Too little flow and you will just be recircing DT water.
Assuming 100g tank volume and you want to turn it over 3 times per hour gives you 300gph (5gpm) just from the DT.
If your flow into and out of the surge system is also 5gpm you can likely get a 50% turn over rate for an effective DT turn over of 1.5x DT water volume.
So to get 3x DT turn over with a target 50% exchange of old and new water you would need 10gpm from the sump and the DT. I would not call this low flow or low risk in a 40g surge box.

This also get's us back to why we use emergency drains in our tanks (or some other function. For this to work, you need to assume that water into the surge system exactly matches water back to the upstairs sump system. If water out is too high, you will drain the lower DT. If water out is too low then you will put the extra water into your DT and flood it. At the flow rates discussed, this could happen quickly.

I also don't see how you could set up an effective emergency drain. If the emergency drain is set above the surge float you will flood the lower DT. Water will never actuate the surge if the emergency drain is below the float level.

A system like this can be safely done with automation imo but you have ruled that out.

It could be done with some purely mechanical devices, but those would have higher risk and require much more maintenance. Not to mention they are very expensive and typically reserved for industrials. Think multiple pressure controlled valves with mechanical controllers at $3k+.

 

[Cannoy]

I have another idea that I dont think i saw posted. In the upstairs sump make two separate return sections next to each other with their own pumps going back up to the coral table. In one of the return sections add a overflow box going downstairs to the display and then pumped back up to the sump. With two return sections upstairs one will stay at a constant level because of the overflow box and the other should evaporate like normal for the ato to add back to. Also you might need to add a second overflow at the same level as the one going downstairs but this one will overflow to the second return section of the sump. Having the second overflow going to the evaporating return section should give some redundancy if either return pump going to the coral table fails.

 

[Battlecorals]

Maybe I over simplified things but.

Can you figure out the volume the sump raises when it has no power? If it isn’t a a crazy large amount it might be as simple as building your office display taller to accommodate the extra volume. similar to how are sumps work, you would have a lower operating level and a higher no power level. but if it is too tall you lose the ability to work in the display.......hmmmmm

Hi there thanks again for the input I really do appreciate all the ideas and discussion.

as for water returning back to the sump after pumps are shut off, It's quite a lot actually. Six 11' x 4' tanks all drop about 3/4-1" of water when pumps shut off, not to mention 160 foot of water in the actual plumbing counting drains and returns.

I did the math with the old RC volume calculator way back when but I don't remember what it was. It raises the water in my 10' 42" sump all of 8-9 inches though maybe a little more.

 

[MrWheelock]

So I've been scratching my head... what about setting up an overflow through the sump in the return section but use a type of flapper valve with a float setup to it. Water in the sump raises floating the flapper closed, plus the suction created by the water weight should help pull the valve closed. Use a rubber gasket on the flapper.

Basically like your toilet tank flapper valve

 

[DSEKULA]

Just add a solinoid valve based on float switch etc let it fill to a certain point and have the main line coming in close when the float is hit. Even if it's a backup to engineering it as a surge tank it would give me more peace of mind.