Clownfish has rapid mouth movement. I also need help reading api levels…

[Gtinnel]

Yeah they are odd. The other night I noticed they were sleeping sideways near the surface. Apparently that’s normal. Also the one was having seizures and read that was normal. WEIRD. They never fail to interest me.

Yep clowns behave oddly, however the rapid breathing is not normal and a sign of some issue. I agree that your tank seems to be cycled so ammonia shouldn’t be the issue IMO.
There is a good chance it is disease or parasite related, so the most help I can be is to the tag the forums resident fish disease expert @Jay Hemdal to see what he thinks.

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

Hello all. Happy Saturday.

I made a post last Friday. Feel free to look at it. I added fish (clownsthe following day (last sat). Also added the pulsing Xenia and GSP. The fish have done well and we’re eating great. I bought them from the Corner Reef in St. Louis. Not sure if my tank was fully cycled at that point, but my ammonia had been decreasing rapidly. Think ammonia was at .25, but heard that api ammonia will never show 0. No nitrites and little nitrates at that time.

Today I just tested parameters. Salinity is at 31 ppt. I’m having trouble reading the api kit though. I can’t tell what color each vile is. I think my

ph 8.2
Ammonia .25??
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0?

Tonight when I was turning off the lights and feeding, my one clown didn’t move from the corner. I noticed it’s mouth was rapidly moving. I don’t think it’s oxygen because it’s not at the top getting air… hope it doesn’t have something horrible wrong. I hope it just bit a bristle worm or something?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

no, I do not have a quarantine tank. My plan is to not add anything else until I can afford it. I am content with the three basic corals I have and the fish and hermits.

I did just notice that one has a white scratch on it. It isn’t bashing itself against anything that I can see…

 

[brandon429]

because it is cycled- see the example link provided.

Ben

I too used to think api was bad but it's the ruleset that was bad.


we want .25 readings in a running reef. that tiny turnover rate translates to .00x on seneye when converted to nh3 which is the only form of ammonia we care about in reefing. you're seeing .25 above ias *nh4*

if there was no ammonia your corals would bleach out and die, a small amount always present runs metabolic machinery in reefing. when things get toxic, full tank events occur. obvious ones, tank crashes.

converted reading nh3 is ten times less than nh4 approximately.

so, if you imagined ten times less ammonia than what's shown above/that's good? a new ruleset takes your current readings and makes them good vs bad. this is updated cycling science.

in other news: dangerous ammonia can't select for one animal and land on its mouth.

it would have all your corals closed, your water gray, smelly, crashing, and the other fish would be dead.

for about thirty straight years folks have tried to tell us that uncycled tanks are symptomless.


the reason updated cycling science has you move on when your cycle is complete, vs looking back in doubt, is so you can focus on fish disease prevention.

If you research fish disease prevention to the degree the public has you concern over cycling, you'd see that buying pre quarantined fish is also an option if you can't qt yourself.

*since you used 1/3 live rock, you'd need to fallow before adding the qt fish. all of that was skipped: is the issue with your fish. to have an occasional pet store clownfish show up sick: is that earth-shattering impossible

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

because it is cycled- see the example link provided.

Ben

I too used to think api was bad but it's the ruleset that was bad.


we want .25 readings in a running reef. that tiny turnover rate translates to .00x on seneye when converted to nh3 which is the only form of ammonia we care about in reefing. you're seeing .25 above ias *nh4*

if there was no ammonia your corals would bleach out and die, a small amount always present runs metabolic machinery in reefing. when things get toxic, full tank events occur. obvious ones, tank crashes.

converted reading nh3 is ten times less than nh4 approximately.

so, if you imagined ten times less ammonia than what's shown above/that's good? a new ruleset takes your current readings and makes them good vs bad. this is updated cycling science.

in other news: dangerous ammonia can't select for one animal and land on its mouth.

it would have all your corals closed, your water gray, smelly, crashing, and the other fish would be dead.

for about thirty straight years folks have tried to tell us that uncycled tanks are symptomless.


the reason updated cycling science has you move on when your cycle is complete, vs looking back in doubt, is so you can focus on fish disease prevention.

If you research fish disease prevention to the degree the public has you concern over cycling, you'd see that buying pre quarantined fish is also an option if you can't qt yourself.

*since you used 1/3 live rock, you'd need to fallow before adding the qt fish. all of that was skipped: is the issue with your fish. to have an occasional pet store clownfish show up sick: is that earth-shattering impossible

Yes yes, I get what you’re saying. Tank is cycled, and it’s a disease. I get it. I need to figure out what disease and what/if I can fix it. That’s what I need to know.

I don’t mind loosing the corals, I bought cheap corals because of that reason. I care more about the fish and will do what I can in this tank to help them. This tank can act as a quarantine tank if-need be. I’m fine with that. That’s why I bought cheap corals.

It is Hard to know what to do when many have vast experiences and have advice that varies. I was told it would be fine by many, I was told it wouldn’t…. It’s also harder when you live an hour and a half ish away from the nearest store.

 

[PlumbTuckered]

I was told it was cycled last week. Got the same levels this week as last.

There are many ways to tell if a tank is cycled.

There are people here that are of high skill level and can determine a completed cycle by observation.

I'm not one of those people.

I rely on testing nitrites and ammonia. Both should be ZERO when the tank is cycled.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

From the video I saw, this is NOT a water quality issue - one clownfish is breathing hyper fast and the other isn't - yet they are in the same water. That, and the corals opening is a rule-out for water quality issues IMO.

I would contact the store, and ask if they are having any similar issues with the tank(s) you got these fish from.

Jay

 

[jabberwock]

Add a bubbler for now. You can get a cheap one at an outdoors store. They are used for bait in buckets... (Don't tell your fish)!

Is the local fish store your main source of information? That can be problematic. They usually want to sell you more stuff.

TONS of knowledge right here at your finger tips. I did not see any mention of tank size. I might have missed it. How many gallons?

 

[brandon429]

13 gallons

Two clowns is pushing it but then again lots have this setup on nano-reef.com


In all fairness this is an atypical cycle, you won't find another cycle like this on the board. This was dry rock 2/3 live quality cured rock 1/3 plus roughly twenty days before adding fish. Most cram in bottle bac

This was is a time duration cycle where x number days is taken for the cured rock to spread its bacteria around

in threads that track such things we find 20 days will upcycle dry rock when live rock is in the flow path. Also factoring: the ability of the 1/3 portion is powerful, can carry two clowns on its own per setups seen at nano-reef.com

The detail Jay points out about selectivity in one fish + I'm spotting healthy corals, they're not dying they're prospering, factors. Plus that api reading above is the same as the pre load test readings. You're able to carry two fish plus days of feeding without change in ammonia... it's converting nicely.

 

[jabberwock]

Looks like they might be hosting the thermometer. Not a problem. The "seizures" are likely a submissive display. They "shudder" to show submissiveness. The rapid breathing is the main symptom, I think.

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

Yes yes, I get what you’re saying. Tank is cycled and it’s a disease. I get it. I need to figure out what disease and what/if I can fix it. That’s what I need to know.

I don’t mind loosing the corals, I bought cheap corals because of that reason. I care more about the fish and will do what I can in this tank to help them.

There are many ways to tell if a tank is cycled.

There are people here that are of high skill level and can determine a completed cycle by observation.

I'm not one of those people.

I rely on testing nitrites and ammonia. Both should be ZERO when the tank is

13 gallons

Two clowns is pushing it but then again lots have this setup on nano-reef.com


In all fairness this is an atypical cycle, you won't find another cycle like this on the board. This was dry rock 2/3 live quality cured rock 1/3 plus roughly twenty days before adding fish. Most cram in bottle bac

This was is a time duration cycle where x number days is taken for the cured rock to spread its bacteria around

in threads that track such things we find 20 days will upcycle dry rock when live rock is in the flow path. Also factoring: the ability of the 1/3 portion is powerful, can carry two clowns on its own per setups seen at nano-reef.com

The detail Jay points out about selectivity in one fish + I'm spotting healthy corals, they're not dying they're prospering, factors. Plus that api reading above is the same as the pre load test readings. You're able to carry two fish plus days of feeding without change in ammonia... it's converting nicely.

Yes. I did try and find a cycle comparable to mine..Thank you for pointing that out. I was like “surely someone has had a cycle like this.

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

Looks like they might be hosting the thermometer. Not a problem. The "seizures" are likely a submissive display. They "shudder" to show submissiveness. The rapid breathing is the main symptom, I think.

Man, I hope so.

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

From the video I saw, this is NOT a water quality issue - one clownfish is breathing hyper fast and the other isn't - yet they are in the same water. That, and the corals opening is a rule-out for water quality issues IMO.

I would contact the store, and ask if they are having any similar issues with the tank(s) you got these fish from.

Jay

I called the store and mentioned sending videos and pictures. They said there wasn’t anything wrong with the tanks I bought them in. (There was only one clown and corals in each of the tanks I got them in). They think it might be because my temp has been fluctuating. It goes from 75-80 during the day. They also said it could be an ammonia spike. They said captive bred clowns generally don’t have diseases as much, but they’d look at the video and try and help me. I’ll let you guys know. Thank you all for your help.

 

[jabberwock]

I called the store and mentioned sending videos and pictures. They said there wasn’t anything wrong with the tanks I bought them in. (There was only one clown and corals in each of the tanks I got them in). They think it might be because my temp has been fluctuating. It goes from 75-80 during the day. They also said it could be an ammonia spike. They said captive bred clowns generally don’t have diseases as much, but they’d look at the video and try and help me. I’ll let you guys know. Thank you all for your help.

Freeze a couple water bottles of tank water to float when water temps get to high.

 

[brandon429]

the lfs is wrong in their assessment. soon, a bottle bac purchase is coming. something that doesn't address standard disease in pet store clownfish is about to happen. they use api, and they don't report nor ask you for nh3 levels before making ammonia assessments. they unfactor or didn't ask you questions to arrive at the 3 other confirming variables that you don't have an ammonia problem...they must use api or red sea for their ammonia testing in the store.

 

[brandon429]

there are no uncycled reef tanks in your presentation at day 28.

again, restating, your api levels are the same now vs when you added fish

all the fish waste, and the daily feed, is handled, such that your ammonia didn't change and nitrite is perfect zero.


they aren't factoring this in any assessments they're giving/selling you.

 

[brandon429]

you have a nice offset option that doesn't violate any rule of updated cycling science.


when in doubt do a water change. if you truly want to mitigate perceived ammonia do a water change matching the same temp and salinity of your old water, only those two need to match. that directly exports a known % of all compounds and it is harmless and can't unseat any current filtration bacteria. feel free to change water as much as you want.


adding prime causes false ammonia reads. prime is a known test kit adulterant, lfs isn't telling you that. your test is still passing though...with all these supports in place. because your api kit above reads actually less ammonia than most full running reef tanks, we can't call your cycle broken. heck its 99% perfect, the 1% is a lfs fish having no disease prep.

if this is the same lfs that sold you the fish then assessmentbias.com

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

you have a nice offset option that doesn't violate any rule of updated cycling science.


when in doubt do a water change. if you truly want to mitigate perceived ammonia do a water change matching the same temp and salinity of your old water, only those two need to match. that directly exports a known % of all compounds and it is harmless and can't unseat any current filtration bacteria. feel free to change water as much as you want.


adding prime causes false ammonia reads. prime is a known test kit adulterant, lfs isn't telling you that. your test is still passing though...with all these supports in place. because your api kit above reads actually less ammonia than most full running reef tanks, we can't call your cycle broken. heck its 99% perfect, the 1% is a lfs fish having no disease prep.

if this is the same lfs that sold you the fish then assessmentbias.com

I get what you’re saying. I believe you. Not sure what to do though. They haven’t responded after I sent the videos. I guess if they don’t come up with something then I’ll just have to wait and see unfortunately.

 

[Bentheclownfishman]

I get what you’re saying. I believe you. Not sure what to do though. They haven’t responded after I sent the videos. I guess if they don’t come up with something then I’ll just have to wait and see unfortunately.

Thank you.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Keep monitoring. I would get a qt ready to treat fish. It’s very difficult to treat in a dt with rock, sand, inverts, and corals.

 

[jabberwock]

I know there are instructions on how to build an inexpensive hospital tank on this site. Can somebody point him to it? Sorry, I just don't know where it is.